ARNHEM BIENNALE CATALOG – 2009 – BY DIANE PERNET

FEBRUARY 2009

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 WANT TO HEAR ABOUT HOW YOUR CATHOLIC SCHOOL TRAINING AND BIBLE STORIES WITH PEOPLE IN LONG ROBES DRAGGING ON THE FLOOR IMPRESSED YOU AS A CHILD? 

RICK OWENS: GROWING UP SISSY IN A SMALL CONSERVATIVE TOWN, I THINK THIS WAS THE FIRST EXAMPLE OF EXOTICISM I COULD CLING TO. AND I WAS ATTRACTED TO THE HIGHER SPIRITUAL PLANE DRAMA QUEEN ELEMENT OF IT. 

TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE BIBLICAL STORY ABOUT ADAM AND THE DEMONESS LILITH? ADAM MADE FROM PURE DUST AND LILITH FROM FILTH AND SEDIMENT. 

MICHELE LAMY: ADAM AND EVE WERE BOTH FROM PURE DUST. LILITH CAME LATER TO REINFORCE DREAMS AND POWER OF MESOPOTAMIAN MEN. TWIST ON THEIR FASCINATION OF THE WOMEN BODY AND THE MYSTERY OF PROCREATION. 

R.O.: I DON'T KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT LILITH BUT I ASSUME SHE WAS AN INVENTION OF MEN UPTIGHT ABOUT THE IDEA OF A SEXUAL WOMAN. 

WHAT WERE YOUR TEENAGE DESIRES, AND HOW DID YOU BOTH DRESS WHEN YOU WERE TEENS? RICK, I READ THAT YOU WERE EXTREMELY SHY. I CANNOT IMAGINE YOU SUFFERED FROM THAT, MICHELE? 

M.L.: COMING FROM BEING FROM 9 YEARS OLD TO 17 IN AN EVERYDAY NAVY UNIFORM IN BOARDING SCHOOL. AFTER THAT, COURCHEVEL, SAINT TROPEZ, FURS, FLEA MARKETS, CRAZY HAIR, HENNA BRACELETS, DOROTHEE BIS, SONIA RYKIEL, KENZO IN THEIR FIRST YEARS. MAI 68 HUGE IMPACT, LABORDE [CLINIC] DELEUZE AND GUATTARI...DRUGS. SO, NOT SHY. 

R.O.: I THINK MICHELE CAUGHT ON TO SOCIAL SKILLS PRETTY EARLY ON AND PROBABLY DRESSED IN A CELEBRATORY WAY WHEN SHE WAS ABLE TO. I WAS KIND OF MISERABLE AND DRESSED OUT OF ANGER AND DEFIANCE. OF COURSE I WASN'T FOOLING ANYBODY. 

HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU DISCOVERED FRENCH VOGUE AND THE MUGLER AND MONTANA '80S MOMENT? 

R.O.: PROBABLY AROUND 17. I WAS IMPRESSED THAT SOMEONE COULD CREATE A GLAMOROUS MYTHOLOGICAL WORLD WITH PERFECT HEROIC BEAUTIES. I ALSO HAD LED ZEPPELIN, AND JOHN WATERS, ALL CREATING THEIR OWN PARALLEL UNIVERSES. 

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE CANADIAN DIRECTOR GUY MADDIN? HIS FILMS ARE KNOWN FOR THE LOOK OF MODERN DECAY, OR RATHER DECAY THAT IS MADE IN A MODERN WAY. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON DECAY AND ITS OWN INTEGRITY? YOU LIKE YOUR FABRICS TO FEEL SOFT AND LOOK USED, IS THERE ANY PARALLEL WITH MADDIN'S APPROACH TO FILM? 

M.L.: NOT AT ALL. I THINK I ONLY SAW 'MY WINNIPEG.' DID NOT CLICK. WENT FROM GODARD 3 TIMES A DAY TO ANDY WARHOL/PAUL MORRISSEY NON-STOP. 

R.O.: IF THERE'S A FILMMAKING ASSOCIATION FOR ME, IT WOULD BE WITH SATYAJIT RAY'S FILMS. DUSTY ROBES AND RESTRAINED EMOTIONS. I WAS ALWAYS DISSATISFIED THAT ANYTHING EXTREME OR RADICAL IN FASHION HAD TO BE RESERVED FOR SUNDAY BEST OR RUNWAY. FROM THE BEGINNING, I DECIDED TO CORRUPT FROM WITHIN. IF AN EXTREME SILHOUETTE WAS SOFT, GREY AND WEATHERED, IT SLIPPED INTO EVERYDAY LIFE WITHOUT MAKING A BIG NOISE. 

DID EITHER OF YOU EVER WATCH THE GOTHIC SOAP OPERA FROM THE LATE '60S, EARLY '70S, 'DARK SHADOWS'? IF SO, DID IT LEAVE ANY IMPRESSION ON YOU? 

M.L.: NO. 

R.O.: I DIDN'T HAVE A TV BUT MY BEST FRIEND NANCY THE LESBIAN THREATENED TO GET AN ' I LOVE BARNABAS ' TATTOO. 

HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE THE DARK, THE MACABRE AND THE SHADOWY—AND WHAT PART DOES THAT PLAY IN YOUR DESIGNS? 

M.L.: I DON'T SEE RICK DESIGN AS MACABRE AT ALL. SHADOWY AND DARK IN AN HAPPY WAY. THE HAIR SHINE. THE SKIN GLOW. BLUE IS FOR THE SKY AND THE EYES. AND A LITTLE RED FOR BERRIES AND MOUTH SOMETIMES. HE IS SHADOWY AND ELEGANT. 

R.O.: YEAH. THAT'S JUST WHAT I WANT TO BE. SHADOWY AND ELEGANT. AND WHO CAN RESIST THE ATTRACTION OF THE SUPERNATURAL? MY WORLD IS AN INCLUSIVE ONE WHERE UNCONVENTIONAL BEAUTY IS CELEBRATED. AND ANY TIME YOU GO AGAINST THE GRAIN IN A SOMBER WAY IT INEVITABLY TAKES ON A SINISTER TONE. 

IS IT TRUE THAT YOU HAD AN IGGY POP MOMENT IN A TACKY MEXICAN DRAG BAR IN L.A.? DID YOU EVER MEET HIM AGAIN? 

R.O.: YEP. NOPE. 

I KNOW RICK STARTED OUT IN PORTERVILLE, AN AGRICULTURAL TOWN IN THE SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY. YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU GREW UP NEAR THE ALPS? WHERE EXACTLY AND WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO MOVE TO L.A.? 

M.L.: ON A WHIM. FROM EARLY 20S ALWAYS DREAMT OF A LITTLE SCRIPT AND TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. A LOT OF DIFFERENT STORIES THAT TOOK ME HERE AND THERE BUT ALWAYS ATTRACTED BY THE STATES. A LOT OF COMING AND GOING TO NEW YORK FIRST. THEN DECIDED TO LIVE IN L.A. WITHOUT EVER HAVING BEEN THERE. NEVER WENT TO A SHRINK EITHER. 

IN 1988 YOU WERE WORKING AS A PATTERN CUTTER FOR MICHELE. IS THAT HOW YOU MET? YOU DID THAT FOR TWO YEARS. WHEN DID THE ROMANCE BEGIN? 

M.L.: TOTAL STRIKE OF THUNDER. DID NOT HAVE EVEN A 'REGULAR CONVERSATION' FOR TWO YEARS BUT WE WERE EVERY DAY CLOSE TO EACH OTHER. THINK SOMETHING HAPPEN AT A STARN TWINS EXHIBITION AT MOCA. THEN A LONG KISSING DRINKING COURTSHIP. 

WAS IT SIX YEARS LATER THAT YOU OPENED YOUR OWN BRAND. DID MICHELE ENCOURAGE YOU TO DO THAT? 

R.O.: SHE DIDN'T NEED TO. IT WAS AN UNDERSTOOD PART OF OUR LIVES. 

HOW DID YOU SWITCH FROM YOUR OWN BRAND TO OPENING LES DEUX CAFES? 

M.L.: DID NOT SWITCH BUT OVERLAP. OPEN FIRST CAFE DES ARTISTES WITH A FRENCH GIRLFRIEND WHO HAD COME TO LIVE WITH ME AFTER LOSING HER LEASE AT L'ENTREPOT IN PARIS. SEE, EVEN IF I MOVED AROUND A LOT ALWAYS TOOK WITH ME MY TWO SIDES OF THE FAMILY: THE FASHION MANUFACTURING ON MY FATHER SIDE AND THE RESTAURANT/CLUB FROM MY MOTHER SIDE. 

WAS THE REASON YOU SOLD LES DEUX CAFES BECAUSE OF THE MOVE TO PARIS AND REVILLON? 

M.L.: SEE MARLENE DIETRICH IN CASABLANCA FOLLOWING GARY COOPER. 

R.O.: IN THE TWO YEARS OF WORKING FOR MICHELE PRIOR TO OUR GETTING TOGETHER, I HAD A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING HER ACCENT AND WINDING THOUGHT PROCESS. I JUST KNEW THAT IT WAS WILDLY ATTRACTIVE. WHEN I STARTED TO UNDERSTAND HER, THE ATTRACTION WAS COMPLETE. SOON AFTER US GETTING TOGETHER, MICHELE LOST INTEREST WITH THE RAG BUSINESS AND IMMERSED HERSELF IN THE RESTAURANT BUSINESS. AT THAT MOMENT, CAFE DES ARTISTES WAS A TINY CAFE HIDDEN BEHIND BUSHES ON A SLEAZY SIDE STREET BETWEEN SUNSET AND HOLLYWOOD BOULEVARDS WITH COMPETING DRUG DEALERS ON EACH END. LEAVE IT TO MICHELE TO TURN THIS MOST INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY SPOT INTO THE COOLEST GROWN-UP CROSSROADS OF ALL WORLDS. ONE OF THE NIGHTS THAT MIGHT SUM IT UP WAS LIZA MINNELLI DESCRIBING TO ME HOW ELSA PERETTI GAVE HER FAKE DIAMONDS AND THEN JUMPING UP TO RUN AFTER MADONNA WHO WAS JUST LEAVING AND BUMPING INTO JONI MITCHELL ON THE WAY IN. AT THE SAME TIME, I WAS STARTING TO MAKE CLOTHES AND SELL THEM TO CHARLES GALLAY, A LEGENDARY RETAILER IN L.A. HE PREPAID AND KEPT ME AFLOAT. MICHELE AND I DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY JUST THEN. BUT I REMEMBER NOT NOTICING TOO MUCH. WE JUST FLOATED THROUGH. AT ONE POINT WE WERE ROBBED AT GUNPOINT IN OUR BED IN OUR APARTMENT AND IMMEDIATELY MOVED TO THE CHATEAU MARMONT. WE HAD ONE OF THE LAST CHEAP ROOMS IN THE WING THAT WASN'T REFURBISHED YET. I MADE MY FIRST COLLECTION THERE AND MICHELE SAILED TO THE CAFE EVERY NIGHT IN SOMETHING FROM IT. LOOKING BACK, BEING BROKE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE A HUGE PROBLEM. I THINK WE JUST ASSUMED IT WAS TEMPORARY. 

IS IT TRUE, RICK, THAT YOU HAD GONE THROUGH A DRUG/ALCOHOL MOMENT AND THAT IT WAS MICHELE THAT GOT YOU OUT OF IT? HOW BAD DID IT GET BEFORE YOU TOOK THE HIGH ROAD TO HEALTH? 

M.L.: OUR RELATIONSHIP WAS PRETTY BOOZY AS WE NEEDED HELP TO DISENTANGLE OUR DIFFERENT STRINGS. WHEN IT GOT TOO NASTY FOR HIM I WAS ALWAYS THERE AND DRAGGING HIM TO THE GYM. WHEN HE GOT OUT OF IT I SERIOUSLY FELL APART, TOO, AND HE PICKED ME UP. 

R.O.: WELL, MICHELE JUST ENDED UP TIPSY AT THE END OF THE NIGHT. I ENDED UP WAKING UP UNDER FREEWAY OVERPASSES. IT TOOK ME A COUPLE OF CLOSE CALLS TO SCARE ME STRAIGHT. WE'RE NOT AA OR ANYTHING, IT JUST FEELS TOO GOOD NOW TO NOT DRINK. 

WAS YOUR FIRST COLLECTION IN 1996? WAS MICHELE YOUR MUSE FROM YOUR FIRST COLLECTION? HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE A MUSE AND WHAT IS THE EXCHANGE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU? 

M.L.: DON'T KNOW ABOUT MUSE. IS IT SOMETHING TO SAY JUST WHEN THERE IS NOTHING TO SAY? CERTAINLY I BROUGHT A EASY JE NE SAIS QUOI AND COULD NOT WEAR ANYTHING ELSE. 

R.O.: MUSE ALWAYS SOUNDS TOO FAG-HAGGY TO ME. SHE HOLDS UP STANDARDS THAT RESONATE WITH ME. AESTHETICALLY, MORALLY AND EMOTIONALLY. I ALWAYS INTRODUCE HER AS MY BETTER HALF BECAUSE THAT'S MY MOST ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF HER. 

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THE POPULARITY OF DESIGNING WITH A MUSE IN MIND HAS FADED SINCE THE '80S FOR MANY OTHER DESIGNERS NOWADAYS? 

M.L.: BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET. NOTHING CHANGE. THERE IS MORE INFORMATION. MORE PEOPLE. 

R.O.: ACTUALLY, I'M TRYING TO THINK OF AN EXAMPLE OF A DESIGNER AND MUSE AND I CAN'T THINK OF ANY. DENEUVE AND ST. LAURENT? HEPBURN AND GIVENCHY? I ALWAYS THOUGHT THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WERE PROBABLY HYPED AND NOT A TRUE EXAMPLE. OH, PEGGY MOFFITT AND GERNREICH. THAT SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY SINCERE COLLABORATION. 

CAN THE MUSE BE REVIVED AS A MODERN DAY 'TARGET MARKET' PROFILE? OR SHOULD THE MUSE REMAIN A PRIVATE AFFAIR IN THE ATELIER? 

M.L.: PRIVATE AFFAIR IN THE ATELIER. 

R.O.: I GUESS EVERYBODY DOES IT THEIR OWN WAY. I'M SURE THERE ARE DESIGNERS THAT HAVE TARGET MARKET MUSES AND IT WORKS OUT GREAT FOR THEM. THINGS SEEM TO WORK BEST FOR ME WHEN I DON'T TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT PEOPLE WANT TOO MUCH AND JUST GO WITH MY GUT. 

IS IT BETTER TO HAVE A PASSIVE MUSE OR ONE WITH IDEAS, INTELLECT? 

M.L.: BOTH. 

R.O.: I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE VERY REALISTIC OR SATISFYING TO HAVE A PASSIVE MUSE. 

THIS SPRING 2009 THERE WILL BE AN EXHIBITION ORGANIZED BY THE COSTUME INSTITUTE OF THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART 'THE MODEL AS MUSE: EMBODYING FASHION.' CAN YOU BOTH REFER TO OTHER MUSES IN HISTORY? 

M.L.: FASHION MUSES ARE THE LEAST OF THE MUSES...OFTEN CALLED CLIENTS. IN HISTORY THE GREAT MUSES ARE RELATED TO ARTISTS. LET'S JUST SAY KIKI DE MONTPARNASSE, ALMA MAHLER, GEORGES SAND AND DORA MAAR. THEY SAY BEHIND A GREAT MAN THERE IS ALWAYS... 

R.O.: DUSE AND D'ANNUNZIO? DIVINE AND JOHN WATERS? 

WHAT WAS YOUR IDEAL FOR BEAUTY WHEN YOU FIRST GOT INTERESTED IN FASHION, AND HOW HAS THAT EVOLVED? 

M.L.: NEFERTITI. NEVER CHANGE NEVER WILL. 

R.O.: WELL, PROBABLY THE COVER OF DIAMOND DOGS. THE MEMORY OF THAT MIX OF THE GROTESQUE, THE BEAUTIFUL AND THE AMBIGUOUS IS PROBABLY SOMETHING I HAVE IN COMMON WITH ALL MY CLIENTS. AND I'M PROBABLY ALWAYS DOING SOME KIND OF VARIATION OF IT. 

WHO IS YOUR MALE MUSE? IS IT YOURSELF? 

R.O.: YOU'D THINK SO, WOULDN'T YOU? BUT THE GUY I'VE BEEN REGULARLY PHOTOGRAPHING IN MY CLOTHES MIGHT BE THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF ME: BONY, WHITE, KIND OF LIKE A GREYHOUND. I SUPPOSE I OBJECTIFY HIM LIKE A PORCELAIN TRANSLUCENT JELLYFISH. GRACEFUL AND ALIEN. I'M ALWAYS CRITICAL OF DESIGNERS WHO DRESS WOMEN LIKE UNFUCKABLE DOLLS, BUT MAYBE THAT'S WHAT I DO WITH MEN. BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO MAKING, AS OPPOSED TO PHOTOGRAPHING CLOTHES, MY CRITERIA ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT. I CREATED AN IDEAL MIX OF HELMUT BERGER AND NEIL YOUNG IN MY HEAD. HELMUT BERGER FOR THE SEXUALLY FLEXIBLE, EURO-WICKED GLAMOROUS SIDE, AND NEIL YOUNG FOR THE SILENT-INTEGRITY GUY SIDE. SO YES, I SUPPOSE THAT'S THE MIX I'D LIKE TO BE. 

I KNOW THIS IS DIFFICULT TO ANSWER BUT WHY DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR DARK STYLE IS SO APPRECIATED RIGHT NOW? 

M.L.: IT SEEMS THAT THE HUN IS MAKING HIS MARK RIGHT NOW. IT'S JUST FAIR. HE IS EVEN GETTING BETTER WITH A NICE BUSINESS TEAM, AND HERE YOU ARE. YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK ABOUT YOUR DARK, LET'S SAY—THAT THE ELEGANCE AND THE EASYNESS AND SPECIALLY THAT NOBODY TALKS ABOUT—IT'S THAT YOU GET A DIFFERENT WAY OF WALKING AND BEHAVING IN HIS CLOTHES THAT IT'S DIFFICULT TO CHANGE. 

R.O.: WELL, I'M PRETTY LUCKY. ANY APPRECIATION FOR ME HAS A LOT TO DO WITH GOOD SALES AND MANUFACTURING PARTNERS. I THINK I'VE LEARNED HOW TO MAKE A MORE CONVINCING AND FOCUSED PRESENTATION RECENTLY, THOUGH, AND I DO FEEL A RESPONSE. 

HOW DOES ONE MAINTAIN A CULT FOLLOWING PURSUING AN ANTI-FASHION ETHIC BUT SELLING TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF CLOTHES EACH YEAR? 

M.L.: NO ADVERTISING. 

R.O.: YEAH, COULD BE THAT SIMPLE. I WAS NEVER A BIG SENSATION, SO I HAD A WHILE TO JUST BE THERE. AND NOW I'M JUST THERE. TOO OLD TO BE NEW, AND TOO AROUND TO IGNORE, I SUPPOSE. 

WHAT WAS THE REACTION OF FONDAZIONE PITTI DISCOVERY, WHEN YOU PROPOSED THE MADAME TUSSAUD SCULPTURE OF YOURSELF PEEING? DID YOU HAVE A GOOD LAUGH WHEN YOU PULLED THAT ONE OFF? 

R.O.: THEY DIDN'T BAT AN EYELASH. THEY WERE INCREDIBLY GENEROUS WITH ME, CREATING THREE SEPARATE SIMULTANEOUS INSTALLATIONS AND PRODUCING A MENS RUNWAY SHOW. THEY WERE VERY RESPECTFUL BUT I SUSPECT THEY ENJOYED A CHEERFULLY TRANSGRESSIVE GESTURE AS MUCH AS I DID. BY THE WAY, THAT SCULPTURE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE EXHIBITED. I JUST WANTED A PAINTING-OVER-THE-MANTELPIECE EXPERIENCE AND COMMISIONED IT FOR MY HOUSE. I THOUGHT IT WAS A FUNNY EXERCISE IN VANITY, MORTALITY AND INTERIOR DECORATION. BUT WHEN PITTI INVITED ME TO DO SOMETHING, IT JUST HAPPENED TO COME IN HANDY. 

WHAT IS THE STORY THAT YOU WERE TELLING WITH YOU 'PRIESTESSES OF LONGING' COLLECTION? 

R.O.: I WAS ASKING MYSELF 'WHAT AM I TRYING TO SAY WITH WHAT I'M DOING?' AND BEING ALL EXISTENTIAL. I ACTUALLY WOKE UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WITH THE WORD 'LONGING.' I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS THE ANSWER, BUT IT DID SEEM LIKE A CLUE. EVERYTHING I WAS ATTRACTED TO THAT SEEMED WORTHY OF ATTRACTION HAD A SENSE OF LONGING ATTACHED. EVERY OPERA HAD A LONGING FOR A LOVE SO TRUE, THAT, ONCE ATTAINED, THERE WAS NOTHING TO DO BUT DIE. THE SAME WITH HEAVY METAL ANTHEMS. THE SAME WITH DRUG HIGHS—LONGING FOR THAT ECSTATIC MOMENT. LONGING FOR VALIDATION. LONGING TO BE A RELEVANT DESIGNER. OR LONGING FOR A MOMENT OF SPIRITUALITY SO PURE, YOU DON'T WANNA COME BACK. AND I WAS THINKING OF THE DISCIPLINE AND FAITH AND GRIM DETERMINATION IT SOMETIMES TAKES TO GET WHAT YOU LONG FOR.

YOU BOTH LOVE FUR, AND YOU CALL YOURSELVES THE HUNS. IS THE FUR A GLAMOROUS TAKE ON THE NOMADS? 

M.L.: YES YES MILLE FOIS YES. TRIBES. 

R.O.: PROBABLY. THERE'S AN APPEALING REDUCTIVENESS TO IT. A SKIN, A ROCK AND A FIRE. 

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FURNITURE. WHEN YOU STARTED WITH IT YOU CALLED IT AN EXPENSIVE HOBBY. DO YOU STILL SEE IT THAT WAY? LAST NIGHT YOU SAID THAT THE IMPETUS BEHIND THE FURNITURE WAS THAT YOU HAD THIS BIG SPACE AND YOU NEEDED TO ADAPT IT TO YOUR LIFE STYLE. I THINK NEED IS THE BEST REASON EVER TO START SOMETHING; YOU NEED IT AND FOR SURE SOMEONE ELSE WILL NEED IT TO. 

M.L.: IN THE HUN'S WORLD YOU CANNOT BUY ANYTHING. YOU CAN LOVE APPRECIATE A LOT OF ARTISTS BUT THEIR OBJECTS, FURNITURE, ET CETERA WON'T EVER FIT. I HAVE ALWAYS THIS DREAM THAT I WILL REDOCORATE. AT LEAST A CORNER. NEVER WORKS. SO IN MY CORNER LAMYLAND I PILED IT UP WITH BONZAI AND STUFFED MONKEYS AND I LOVE IT SO MUCH. FURNITURE IS GREAT. SO HAPPY THAT JOUSSE PICKED IT UP. A GREAT STORY. 

R.O.: I THINK OF IT AS CUSTOMIZING. IF EVERYONE COULD CUSTOMIZE THE STUFF THEY USE EVERY DAY, THEY WOULD. I CAN. OR, IT MIGHT JUST BE MY EGO RUNNING RAMPANT, HAVING TO PISS ON EVERY TREE TRUNK AROUND ME. EITHER WAY, IT'S DEVELOPED A NICE LIFE OF ITS OWN THAT'S CULTIVATED AND DEVELOPED BY MICHELE. I JUST WANTED TO HAVE SURROUNDINGS DESIGNED BY MORETTI, LE CORBUSIER AND RUHLMANN. SO I FAKED IT. 

THE ARCHITECT OF YOUR LONDON SHOP WAS YOUR FIRST CLIENT. TELL ME HOW THAT ALL HAPPENED. YOU KNEW HIS WORK BEFORE HE KNEW YOURS, BUT HE CONTACTED YOU. WHAT KIND OF FURS AND MATERIALS DO YOU USE—PLYWOOD, STEEL, CONCRETE? 

M.L.: YOU ARE TALKING OF JOSEPH DIRAND. JOSEPH IS ALWAYS DOING THE JOUSSE GALLERY BOOTH FOR ALL THEIR ART FAIRS. WHEN RICK HAD HIS OPENING AT THE GALLERY LAST OCTOBER, JOSEPH WAS IN MEXICO FINISHING THIS HOTEL HE DESIGNED THERE. HE GOT A PRIZE FOR BEST HOTEL CONCEPT FOR THIS. ANYWAY, HE WAS IN MEXICO AND GOT A MAIL OF THE INVITATION CARD OF THE GALLERY. THERE WAS A HALF PICTURE OF ONE OF THE ANTLER CHAIR ON IT. HE LOVED IT SO MUCH THAT HE CALLED TO GET ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE PIECES AND BOUGHT FOR THE LOBBY OF THE HOTEL THREE 'CURIAL' CHAIRS AND MORE. 

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE DESIGN OF YOUR NEW SHOPS NYC AND LONDON. 

R.O.: WELL, I JUST WANTED A PLACE THAT WAS RAW AND SPARE. I WANTED IT TO LOOK LIKE EILEEN GREY AND JOSEPH BEUYS MOVED IN TOGETHER AND INVITED KISS OVER. 

HOW DO YOU THINK THE ECONOMIC SITUATION IS AFFECTING DESIGNERS, NOT JUST PRACTICALLY BUT AESTHETICALLY? 

M.L.: DON'T WE CALL IT IN FRENCH: 'REMETTRE LES PENDULES A L'HEURE'? FORGETTING ABOUT THE THIEVES, BANKERS OR TRADERS, DON'T WE HAVE A AESTHETICAL PROBLEM EVERYWHERE? FOR EXAMPLE, THE CARS: NO MORE CAR TO DREAM ABOUT; ALL UGLY THE SAME. WHERE ARE THE DS 19 OR THE THUNDERBIRD OF OUR TIMES? AND INSTEAD OF WORKING ON THE NEW ELECTRIC CAR WHAT WERE ALL THOSE COMPANIES PRODUCING? AESTHETICALLY THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE TRYING TO BE TRUE TO ITSELF, AND MORALLY, TOO. CREATIVITY AND INDIVIDUALITY HAVE TO BE THE NEW CONCERNS. OF COURSE SO MANY PROBLEMS AND WARS TO OVERCOME. LEAVING IT ALL TO BARACK OBAMA, EVEN IF HE IS JUST THE FIGURE OF HOPE. AND WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO SAVE AFRICA? WE CAN JUST TRY TO DO WHAT WE KNOW. HOW TO DO THE BEST THAT WE CAN? BEST NEW YEAR RESOLUTIONS, ISN'T IT ? 

R.O.: I THINK IT'S GOING TO HAVE A WONDERFUL PURIFYING EFFECT AND SEPERATE THE CHAFF FROM THE WHEAT. 

DO YOU THINK FASHION SHOULD BE PROVIDING ESCAPISM OR TONING DOWN TO SUIT THE MOOD? 

R.O.: I HAVE AN ADMITTEDLY PUERILE REACTION TO WHAT'S APPROPRIATE OR SUITABLE. BUT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DO. IF I'M PERCEIVED AS HAVING A DARK SIDE, IT'S JUST PROBABLY AN INDULGENCE OF ID WICKEDNESS THAT WILL ALWAYS HAVE AN AMUSED AUDIENCE. I CERTAINLY DIDN'T INVENT IT, AND IT'S HAD MORE PERVASIVE MOMENTS THAN NOW. IN FIN-DE-SIECLE PARIS, SARAH BERNHARDT USED TO WEAR A TAXIDERMIED BAT IN HER HAIR WHILE HUYSMANS WAS WRITING ABOUT SATANIC RITUALS. SO I'M CERTAINLY NOT TAPPING INTO ANYTHING NEW. EVERYONE WANTS A LITTLE EMPOWERMENT FROM WEARING THE SCALP OF THEIR ENEMY OR WEARING THEIR EQUIVALENT OF AN INTIMIDATING BLACK CAPE. I JUST MIGHT BE COMING FROM A POSITION THAT'S A LITTLE MORE GOOD-HUMOURED AND TEASING. NOT DEFIANT OR ANGRY. 

WHAT YOU WILL BE PRESENTING AT THE ARNHEM BIENNALE?