POP MAGAZINE ISSUE 37 — RICK OWENS THE DESIGNER’S DESIGNER — FALL/WINTER 2017 — BY SUSIE LAU

SEPTEMBER 2017

IF EVER THERE WAS A TIMELORD OF FASHION, RICK OWENS WOULD BE IT. THAT’S ‘TIME! LORD!’ SPOKEN WITH A THUNDERING APOCALYPTIC MOVIE TRAILER VOICE. BECAUSE AS OWENS ADMITS HIMSELF, HE LOVES A BIT OF THEATRE. AND HIS WORK WAR-RANTS THAT GRANDIOSE INTRODUCTION. HIS SHOWS HAVE TAKEN ON THE SEEMINGLY ONEROUS MANTLE OF CONVEYING SOME BIG IDEAS. BIG, AS IN IMPORTANT. SIGNIFICANT. UNIVERSAL, EVEN. SOME-HOW, OWENS MANAGES TO REAFFIRM YOUR BELIEF IN DRAMATIC LARGESSE – IN BOTH THE CLOTHES AND THE IDEAS BEHIND THEM. AND THAT’S WHY WITHOUT HESITATION, WE CAN WHOLEHEARTEDLY BESTOW HIM WITH THE TITLE: MASTER OF OUR TIMES.


WHEN OWENS NAMES A COLLECTION ‘GLITTER’, THERE’S NOT A SPARKLY SPECKLE IN SIGHT. INSTEAD HE’S MAKING REFERENCE TO THE 70S GLAM ROCK TRANSGRESSIVE REACTION AGAINST CONSERVATISM, BY BLOWING UP PUFFER VOLUMES ON THE BODY AS A FORM OF PROTECTIVE ARMOUR, AS SEEN IN HIS A/W17 MENSWEAR SHOW. AND FOR HIS WOMEN, THE GLITTER IS ELEVATED AND INCORPORATED AS PART OF A CONTEMPORARY CEREMONIAL RITUAL. THEY LOOKED LIKE HIGH PRIESTESSES THAT ARE WEATHERING CONFLICT WITH REGAL HEADGEAR CONSTRUCT-ED OUT OF SWEATSHIRT SLEEVES AND JERSEY. THE TEXTILE LANGUAGE IS A TRIED AND TESTED STOMP-ING GROUND FOR OWENS BUT TODAY THE SHEARLING, LEATHER AND PADDED OUT NYLON PATCHED ON TO THE BODY TOOK ON A MORE PERTINENT MESSAGE OF WEATHERING THROUGH A CHAOTIC STORM OF A WORLD.


IN RECENT YEARS, OWENS’ MOST INTENSE MOMENTS HAVE ROARED AT DIFFERENT VOLUMES WITH SENTIMENT THAT IS ACTUALLY WORTH YOUR ATTENTION, EVEN IF YOU HAVE ZERO INTEREST IN BUYING HIS CLOTHES. S/S14 – BLACK COLLEGIATE SORORITY DANCERS STOMPING WITH GRIT FACE, ASKING THE FASHION WORLD TO STEP UP AND CONFRONT ITS AMBIVALENCE TOWARDS RACIAL DIVERSITY AS WELL AS QUESTIONING OUR IDEALS OF BEAUTY. S/S16 – WOMEN PHYSICALLY STRAPPED AND BOUND TO ONE ANOTHER LIKE STARTLING HUMAN SCULPTURES, IN ORDER TO REPRESENT THE BEAUTY OF FEMALE-TO-FE-MALE SUPPORT, AS A SLAP ON THIS INCREASINGLY CONSERVATIVE CLIMATE, THAT IS STILL SNEERING AT THE IDEA OF SISTERHOOD.

AND EVEN WHEN HE’S TREADING ON SOFTER GROUND, THERE’S POWER IN THAT LIGHTNESS. HIS S/S17 SHOW INVITATION DEPICTED A WHIRLPOOL, AS OWENS WAS WONDERING WHETHER IT COULD BE A TRANSIENT PORTAL RATHER THAN A FINITE BLACK HOLE. HENCE THE EPHEMERAL MAISON LEMARIÉ OSTRICH FEATHER CAPES AND THE SWATHES OF DRAPED TULLE. WHEN HE CALLED HIS A/W16 COLLECTION ‘MASTODON’, OWENS WAS PASSING COMMENT ON CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE INEVITABILITY OF EXTINCTION. YET THE AERATED CLOUD-ESQUE GOWNS OF PISTACHIO AND CREAM WEREN’T WAVING A PLACARD AT YOU.


IT’S ALMOST AS IF OWENS HAS CRUNCHED UP THE TIMELINE OF MANKIND IN HIS HAND AND IS ABLE TO STAND RIGHT BACK AND SEE THE WORLD AT BOTH ITS MOST BEAUTIFUL AND UGLY. AND THEN HE GOES AHEAD AND CUTS, DRAPES AND SEWS THOSE OBSERVATIONS INTO HIS DESIGNS, CLOTHES SPREAD THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, WORN CONTINUOUSLY BY HIS MANY THOUSANDS OF DEVOTEES.


AND SO WHEN OWENS SPEAKS, YOU LISTEN AND HEED. YOU GIVE HIM AN EXTRA MILE. NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE INDUCTED YOURSELF INTO THE ‘CULT OF OWENS’, THAT IMPOSING GANG WHO FAITHFULLY DECKS THEMSELVES OUT IN HIS CLOTHES FROM HEAD TO TOE, BUT BECAUSE WHAT HE’S SAYING CONTAINS A WHOLE LOT OF TRUTH. AND UNDER THE WEIGHT OF FASHION’S LAYERS OF SURFACE-DRIVEN PRETENCE, THAT TRUTH INCREASINGLY CUTS THROUGH. AN AR-RANGED HOUR WITH OWENS AT HIS 7TH ARRONDISSEMENT HEADQUARTERS IN PARIS QUICKLY TURNS INTO TWO AS YOU DRINK IN PRACTICALLY EVERY WORD, SAVE FOR HIS CALIFORNIAN INFLECTED DISCOURSE MARKERS (PLENTY OF ‘LIKE’ AND ‘YOU KNOW’). HIS BENGAL CAT GAIA, MEANWHILE, WEAVES AROUND US IN LANGUID MOTION. PERMANENCE. EVANESCENCE. CREATION. AND SO WE BEGIN:

SL: I, ALONG WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE, FEEL THAT THERE NOW SEEMS TO BE THIS SENSE OF URGENCY IN YOU. MORE THAN BEFORE EVEN, YOU’VE BEEN ARTICULATING SOME REALLY BIG, MONUMENTAL IDEAS IN YOUR COLLECTIONS.

RO: I FEEL LIKE I’M ADDRESSING THE HUMAN CONDITIONS AND EMOTIONS AND CONCERNS THAT EVERY SINGLE PERSON HAS. I’M JUST ARTICULATING IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY. SOME PEOPLE ARTICULATE IT IN MORE OF AN ESCAPIST WAY, BUT EVEN IN THOSE ESCAPIST WAYS, YOU CAN READ THAT AS A REACTION, SO MINE ARE JUST MAYBE A BIT MORE ANALYTICAL AND AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL. I’M THINKING IF I’M FEEL-ING THESE THINGS, I’M PRETTY SURE THERE’S A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE FEELING THESE THINGS BECAUSE I’M NOT THAT SPECIAL, I HAVE ORDINARY EMOTIONS LIKE ALL OF US DO AND MAYBE I JUST ARTICULATE THEM A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY, A LITTLE BIT MORE BLUNTLY.

SL: YOU SAY BLUNT BUT IF WE’RE LOOKING AT THE ACTUAL CLOTHES THEMSELVES, I DON’T FEEL THAT I’M BEING CLOBBERED WITH THE IDEA OF SAY, CLIMATE CHANGE OR FEMALE SOLIDARITY…

RO: I’M REALLY TRYING NOT TO COME OFF LIKE I KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS AND THAT I HAVE A SET OF RULES THAT ALL SHOULD FOLLOW, THAT IS SOMETHING I DESPERATELY TRY AND AVOID BECAUSE I ALWAYS RESENT IT, BEING TOLD ABOUT RULES, AND ABOUT THE WAY PEOPLE SHOULD BEHAVE. ALL I’M DOING IS… I’M KIND OF, POINTING OUT CONCERNS OF MINE, AND PROPOSING THEM IN AS GENTLE A WAY AS POSSIBLE. I APPRECIATE A GENTLE TOUCH IN THE WORLD.

SL: IS HIGH RISE SCAFFOLDING A ‘GENTLE TOUCH’ DO YOU THINK?

RO: IT IS, IN A WAY, I MEAN IT COULD HAVE HAD FIREWORKS!

SL: OR A PENIS HANGING ON DISPLAY?

RO: I THOUGHT THE PENIS THING WAS A GENTLE TOUCH TOO. OF COURSE, IT’S PROVOCATIVE. I LIKE BE-ING PROVOCATIVE, PROVOCATIVE IS FUN. THE PENIS THING WAS VERY MUCH ABOUT VULNERABILITY AND MASCULINITY AND A MEN’S SHOW IS ABOUT WHAT IS MASCULINE, AND WHAT CAN BE MORE MASCULINE THAN A PENIS? AT THE TIME I THOUGHT IT WAS WEIRD HOW YOU COULD BE SO PRECIOUS AND PRO-FANE AT THE SAME TIME.


SL: WELL IT’S PRECIOUS FOR SURE!

RO: YEAH, BUT IT’S ALSO SO THREATENING TO EX-POSE IT IN A MALE DOMINATED SOCIETY, WHEREAS WOMEN HAVE BEEN USED TO HAVING THE MALE GAZE ON THEM FOR SO LONG. I THOUGHT IT WAS A GENTLE DIG IN THE RIBS AT THIS STRAIGHT WHITE MALE MENTALITY. I KNEW THEY WOULD GET NERVOUS, AND I KNEW IT WOULD INFURIATE MEN AND FREAK THEM OUT BECAUSE THEY DON’T LIKE THAT VULNERABILITY, AND THE FACT THAT WE DIDN’T SHOW IT IN A SEXUAL WAY, ALMOST IN AN INDIFFERENT WAY, MADE IT EVEN MORE THREATENING.

SL: WITH THOSE GESTURES IN THE SHOWS, YOU DO KIND OF OSCILLATE. YOU GO FROM SOMETHING THAT IS SOFTER AND QUIETER, TO STEP DANCERS, OR EVEN WOMEN WEARING ONE ANOTHER…

RO: YEAH, THERE ARE DEGREES OF INTENSITY.

SL: BUT THE GESTURE IS ALWAYS QUITE POWERFUL WITH THE DIFFERENT APPROACHES.

RO: I TRY AND DO THINGS I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN GOING TO SEE, AND I MEAN I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN SOMETHING THAT TALKS ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON.

SL: OR THINGS THAT WE ALL OBSERVE.

RO: ALSO THINGS THAT WE ARE ALL FEELING. I MEAN, WE ALL FEEL THREAT, AND WE ALL FEEL A RUSH OF EMOTION AT THE THOUGHT OF PEOPLE SUPPORT-ING EACH OTHER. WE ALL FEEL VULNERABLE. I DON’T KNOW, MAYBE THERE’S THIS SENSE OF WANTING TO DO SOMETHING ALMOST CONSOLING WHEN I SET OUT TO DO THINGS THAT TALK ABOUT WHAT WE’RE ALL KIND OF FEELING. I THINK IT’S A WAY OF SHARING. I DON’T WANT IT TO BE ABOUT LECTURING OR PREACH-ING, WHICH IS WHY IT’S TRICKY. I DON’T WANT IT TO BE TOO HEAVY HANDED, BUT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE A BIT OF BOMBAST IS FUN. THERE’S SOMETHING JOYOUS ABOUT BOMBAST.

SL: IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN VULNERABILITY, WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL VULNERABLE?

RO: WELL I KNOW THAT BY NOW, I’M UNCOMFORTABLE WITH GROUPS. AND I KNOW I’M NOT SO COMFORTABLE WITH PEOPLE IN GENERAL. I’M VERY MUCH A LONER. WHY DO I FEEL THREATENED? IS IT BECAUSE I WAS AN ONLY CHILD AND I WAS USED TO PLAY-ING BY MYSELF AND THAT’S JUST MY COMFORT ZONE, OR WAS THERE SOMETHING WHEN I WAS YOUNG BECAUSE I WAS KIND OF A SISSY IN A SMALL TOWN THAT WAS VERY CONSERVATIVE AND VERY HOSTILE. BUT THEN I’M THINKING EVERY KID FEELS HOSTILITY, EVERY KID FEELS VULNERABILITY AND EVERY KID GETS NERVOUS SO I DON’T KNOW REALLY.

SL: BUT NOT EVERYONE CHANNELS IT IN LATER LIFE, INTO SOMETHING LIKE YOU DO.

RO: THERE’S A BIT OF VENGEANCE IN WHAT I DO TOO BECAUSE I WAS PICKED ON A LOT FOR BEING WEIRD, OR FLAMBOYANT OR EFFEMINATE.

SL: ME TOO ACTUALLY.

RO: WEIRD, FLAMBOYANT AND EFFEMINATE?!

SL: OH, WEIRD, IT WAS MOSTLY BECAUSE I DRESSED WEIRD.

RO: SEE THAT’S THE THING, I AM USING THAT AS AN EXCUSE BECAUSE EVERY KID FEELS PICKED ON FOR BEING WEIRD.


SL: IT’S A LINEAR EXPLANATION FOR WHAT YOU HAVE BUILT.

RO: SOME KIDS HANDLE IT WELL, AND SOME KIDS GO ALL COLUMBINE AND THIS IS MY VERSION OF GOING COLUMBINE, LIKE WHEN I DO SHOW THE PENIS HANGING OUT, IT’S LIKE A FUCK YOU TO ALL OF THOSE CONSERVATIVE SYSTEMS AND FALSE MORALITY THAT I FELT WERE REPRESSING ME FOR ALL THAT TIME.

SL: IT’S DEFINITELY NOT QUITE AS VIOLENT AS COLUMBINE…

AFFECTIONATE. I DON’T WANT IT TO BE HOSTILE. I LIKE A LITTLE PROVOCATION AND I LOVE THAT THERE WERE THESE OLDER CONSERVATIVE GUYS THAT WERE INFURIATED BY THAT, LIKE KARL LAGERFELD ON TV.

SL: WHAT DID HE SAY?

RO: THAT NIGHT OF THE SHOW, SOMEONE ASKED ‘WHAT DID YOU THINK OF RICK OWENS’ SHOW?’ AND HE WAS GOING ‘I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST DISGUSTING. I HEARD THAT HE HAD TO GO TO BERLIN TO FIND BOYS THAT WOULD SHOW OFF THEIR CHARCUTERIE.’ AND I REMEMBER THINKING THAT’S EXACTLY THE KIND OF GUY THAT I WANT TO MAKE NERVOUS, ESPECIALLY SINCE KARL LAGERFELD IS A MAN WHO HAS TURNED HIS LENS ON THE GLISTENING PUBIC HAIRS OF YOUNG MEN LOOKING OVER THEIR SHOULDERS FOR YEARS. HE’S THE ONE THAT’S BEEN MAKING THESE TITILLATING IMAGES OF MEN. OKAY, WELL HERE’S A DICK, WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO WITH THIS? AND HE FREAKS OUT AND IT’S KIND OF FUNNY.


SL: THAT STRIKES ME AS REALLY SURPRISING, AS HE’S ALWAYS TRYING TO THROW OUT HIS OWN VERSION OF PROVOCATION.

RO: THAT’S JUST THE THING, THE PENIS IS SACRED TO ANY MAN, EVEN TO A MAN LIKE KARL. EXPOSING THE PENIS EXPOSES SOME WEIRD PRIMAL CHORD IN MEN, AND THEY REACT ABOUT THAT IMAGE OF VULNERABILITY, I THINK. HE SEEMS LIKE THE MOST LIBERAL PERSON IN THE WORLD, SO YES IT’S FUNNY.

SL: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT VIRTUE SIGNALLING?

RO: VIRTUE SIGNALLING?

SL: THE KIND OF CLIMATE WE’RE IN WHERE IF SOMETHING IS REMOTELY POLITICALLY INCORRECT PEOPLE GET QUITE ‘UPPITY’ ABOUT IT ON SOCIAL MEDIA

RO: IT’S A MOB MENTALITY. AM I GOING TO GET CRITICISED FOR CALLING IT A MOB MENTALITY? SENSITIVITY IS HEIGHTENED AND THAT’S DANGEROUS.

SL: ARE YOU REMOTELY INTERESTED IN INSTAGRAM RICK?

RO: I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY WE HAVE AN INSTAGRAM CHANNEL, NO IT’S NOT A CHANNEL – WHAT IS IT CALLED?

SL: INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT, BUT YOU CAN CALL IT A CHANNEL.

RO: OH, ALRIGHT, IT SOUNDED AWKWARD… LIKE A GRANDMA.

SL: NO, IT’S OKAY, YOU’RE STILL WITH IT.

RO: I LOVE BEING ABLE TO EDIT OUR INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT, I LOVE BEING ABLE TO SHOW WHAT WE DO. I MEAN, I’M ABLE TO CONTROL WHAT IT IS THAT WE STAND FOR ON AN INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT. ANYTHING VISUAL LIKE THAT I LOVE.

SL: BUT DO YOU LOOK AT, SAY, VIDEOS OF CATS EVER?

RO: I DO EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. I DO HAVE VIDEOS OF MY CATS BECAUSE THEY’RE FUCKING CUTE. BUT I’VE MAYBE DONE TWO SELFIES OR SOMETHING. MY INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT IS VERY EDITED, CALCULATED AND VERY FORMAL AND I DON’T THINK THAT’S BAD. I THINK THE WORLD NEEDS MORE OF THAT, I THINK THERE’S A LITTLE TOO MUCH SPONTANEITY AND A LITTLE TOO MUCH SLOPPINESS – THAT’S WHY I’VE ALWAYS LOVED EMAILED LETTERS. A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY I HAVE TO TALK IN PERSON, BUT I LOVE AN EMAIL.

SL: I LOVE YOUR ALL-CAPITAL-LETTERED EMAILS. WHAT’S WITH THE ALL CAPITALS?

RO: WELL I ALWAYS THOUGHT, FOR ME, IT’S KIND OF CHEERFUL. I KNOW FOR SOME PEOPLE IT’S YELLING, BUT WHEN I SAY CHEERS WITH AN EXCLAMATION MARK, I THINK IT’S KIND OF LIKE ‘CHEERS!’ YOU KNOW, IT’S A LITTLE ARTIFICIAL, IT’S LIKE A BLACK AND WHITE PHOTOGRAPH. IT’S NOT REAL LIFE, AND IT’S MORE FORMAL AND STYLISED.

SL: IT SOUNDS LIKE YOUR VOICE, WHEN I READ IT. I CAN HEAR YOUR VOICE.

RO: SO I THINK THERE’S A SINCERITY THING TO IT WHICH IS LIKE, THIS IS WHO I REALLY AM AND THIS IS HOW I COMMUNICATE. AND EVERYTHING COMES ACROSS – EVEN IF IT’S SHOUTING TO SOME PEOPLE – IT’S KIND OF LIKE A LOUD CHILD OR SOMETHING, AND THERE’S A NAIVETY TO IT THAT’S KIND OF FUNNY.

SL: LET’S TALK ABOUT THE CONTRADICTIONS IN YOUR WORK: SOFT, HARD, DARK, LIGHT, DEATH, LIFE…

RO: LIFE IS ALL ABOUT CONTRADICTIONS. ONE OF MY MAIN POINTS IS THAT I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE SET OF RULES ARE. I’M DOING MY BEST TO FOLLOW MY OWN SET OF RULES AND INSTINCTS ON WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT, BUT WHO AM I TO TELL YOU WHAT’S RIGHT OR WRONG. I HOPE I’M NOT BREAKING RULES THAT ARE THAT IMPORTANT. I DO GET TO BE A CREATOR AND, UM, CREATE.

SL: BUT YOU TREAT IT AS A PRIVILEGE.

RO: IT IS COMPLETELY A PRIVILEGE, AND I GET TO MAKE THE CLOTHES THAT I MAKE IN THE WAY THAT I WANT TO MAKE THEM. I’M MAKING CLOTHES THAT NOBODY REALLY NEEDS, I’M NOT CONTRIBUTING SOMETHING NECESSARY TO WORLD.

SL: BUT YOU DO STAND FOR SOMETHING.

RO: I THINK THAT I’M PROMOTING IDEAS THAT I THINK ARE KIND, THAT I THINK ARE BASED ON KINDNESS AND I THINK THAT’S A VERY VALUABLE THING. I’M ABLE TO PROMOTE THE IDEA OF LOOKING OUTSIDE OF THE BOX OF WHAT YOU THINK IS BEAUTIFUL, I’M PROPOSING DIFFERENT IDEAS OF BEAUTY. I FEEL LIKE I’M IN FASHION AND I’M ABLE TO TALK ABOUT BEAUTIFUL PHYSICAL GESTURES THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN WOMEN IN HIGH HEELS AND HUGE BALL GOWNS. IT’S THE IDEA OF CARING FOR SOMEBODY, AND THE IDEA OF NURTURING, I’M ABLE TO TALK ABOUT BEAUTIFUL GESTURES, BEAUTIFUL URGES AND BEAUTIFUL IDEAS. I THINK THAT KIND OF ENERGY IS WHAT MAKES CIVILISATION ACTUALLY CIVILISED. I MEAN OTHERWISE – IN ANY CULTURE – FIRST THERE’S SURVIVAL, HOW DO YOU SURVIVE? AND THEN WHEN SURVIVAL IS KIND OF ESTABLISHED, WHAT DO YOU DO NEXT? THERE’S PLAY, AND THERE’S ASPIRATIONAL EXPRESSION, THAT’S WHAT A CIVILISATION DOES WHEN SURVIVAL IS ESTABLISHED AND THAT’S THE MEANING OF LIFE. IT IS! IT’S EXPRESSING BEAUTY, IT’S EXPRESSING PLEASURE, IT’S EXPRESSING JOY AND COMMUNICATING THAT WITH PEOPLE. ALTHOUGH I’M NOT VERY POLITICAL I ADMIT.

SL: ARE YOU NOT? BUT YOU’RE AWARE OF IT. YOU HAVE TO BE.

RO: I’M AWARE OF IT, BUT MY POLITICS ARE MORE GENERAL. I’M THINKING ABOUT EVERYBODY AT THIS POINT IN THE HISTORY OF TWENTY MILLION YEARS. I’M NOT THINKING ABOUT WHAT’S HAPPENING IN THE STATES PRESIDENTIALLY. I’M NOT THINKING OF SPECIFIC POLITICS, BECAUSE I CAN’T. I REALLY CAN’T GET BOGGED DOWN IN THAT.

SL: IT’S THAT ABILITY TO SEE THIS LONG TIMELINE SHRINK… AND STEP BACK FROM IT.

RO: I’M THINKING OF MYSELF WITH THE PERSPECTIVE OF HISTORY AND IT’S VERY REASSURING TO ME, BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL INSIGNIFICANT IN A NICE WAY, TO KNOW THAT MY WORK WON’T MAT-TER. NOBODY’S GOING TO CARE ABOUT WHAT I SAID 200 YEARS FROM NOW SO IT’S VERY HUMBLING, BUT IT’S ALSO LIBERATING LIKE ‘GOD, DON’T TAKE IT ALL SO SERIOUSLY’. I’M LOOKING AT AFRICAN ART, I’M LOOKING AT CLOTHES IN PAPUA NEW GUINEA, I’M LOOKING AT BALENCIAGA, I’M LOOKING AT LAND ART. EVERYTHING THAT I DO IS A CONSOLIDATION AND COMPOSITION OF ALL OF MY PERSONAL REFERENCES THAT EVERYBODY ELSE KNOWS. EVERYBODY HAS ALL OF THOSE PERSONAL REFERENCES BUT I GET TO DO A COMPOSITION IN MY OWN PERSONAL, POETIC WAY AND I’M JUST KIND OF GOOD AT IT, IT’S KIND OF LIKE FLOWER ARRANGING, SOME PEOPLE ARE GOOD AT IT AND SOME PEOPLE AREN’T.

SL: YEAH, BUT YOU’RE NOT DOING NORMAL FLOWER ARRANGING – YOU’RE DOING JAPANESE IKEBANA. PRECISE. DELIBERATE.

RO: THAT JUST ME, THOUGH. I’VE USED HAIKU AS A REFERENCE TOO.

SL: THAT’S VERY SPARSE AND CONCISE.

RO: IT’S ABOUT BEING ABLE TO ELIMINATE ALL OF THIS STUFF AND JUST REDUCE IT TO A FEW THINGS. IT’S ABOUT FOCUS, IT’S ABOUT MODESTY, BECAUSE IT’S NOT ABOUT POURING A LOT OF STUFF INTO THE MESSAGE. THERE’S DISCIPLINE WHEN YOU DO A COMPOSITION THAT TIGHT.


SL: LIKE TRAILING FEATHERS OR MASSES OF TULLE GATHERED AROUND THE HIPS?

RO: YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ELEMENT OF JOY! I MEAN I COULD BE VERY DOUR AND SERIOUS AND TRY TO MAKE MY STUFF OVERLY INTELLECTUAL BUT THERE HAS TO BE MOMENTS OF GIDDINESS. WHERE WOULD LIFE BE WITHOUT THE GIDDINESS… I MEAN WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT KIND OF JOY.

SL: IT’S THAT CONTRADICTION AGAIN.

RO: WITH THOSE OLD PERFUMES AND ALL THOSE FLOWERS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT ALMOST SUBLIMINAL NOTE OF WEIRDNESS OR ICKINESS TO MAKE THINGS WORK. THAT’S THE WAY THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PERFUMES ARE MADE, BECAUSE IT GIVES IT DEPTH AND RESONANCE. THIS IS WHY I TALK ABOUT DEATH A LOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT IN THERE SOMEWHERE TO GIVE IT THE GRAVITAS TO ENGAGE WITH. IT CAN’T JUST BE ICING.

SL: DO YOU THINK THERE’S A LOT OF ‘ICING’ IN THE WORLD?

RO: THE WORLD IS DRIPPING IN ICING NOW, THE WORLD IS SLATHERED IN ICING, AND WE’RE DROWNING IN ICING. SEE, NOW I’M BEING JUDGEMENTAL LIKE I KNOW ALL THE RULES…

RESISTING MORTALITY

EVERY MOMENT COUNTS FOR OWENS. AFTER HEDONISTICALLY PARTYING IT UP IN LOS ANGELES THROUGH HIS YOUTH WITH HIS WIFE MICHÈLE LAMY – A BONNIE TO HIS CLYDE – OWENS WENT COLD TURKEY. THEY’VE BOTH BEEN SOBER FOR OVER 20 YEARS NOW. BUT OWENS’ ABILITY TO SEE THAT SHARP EDGED PRECIPICE OVER WHICH ONE CAN FALL AT ANY GIVEN TIME INFORMS MUCH OF HIS RAISON D’ÊTRE AS A DESIGNER. AWARENESS OF HIS OWN MORTALITY ONLY SERVES TO INCREASE HIS APPETITE TO CREATE. HIS DEDICATION TO PERFECTION APPLIES TO HIS GYM-PUMPED MUSCULAR PHYSIQUE AND CAREFULLY DYED AND STRAIGHTENED RAVEN MANE [APPROVED PORTRAIT OPPOSITE] BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, TO HIS COLLECTIONS. THAT’S NOT TO SAY OWENS HAS ANY GRANDIOSE NOTIONS ABOUT HIS WORK. IT’S A VOCATION AND A PRIVILEGE RATHER THAN AN EGOMANIAC’S WHIMSY. YOU MIGHT PUT THAT DOWN TO HIS CATHOLIC SCHOOL UPBRINGING.

BUT BY CONSTANTLY ACKNOWLEDGING HIS OWN RELATIVE INSIGNIFICANCE, AND REFUTING THE WEIGHT OF HIS CONTRIBUTION, IT ONLY MAKES YOU THINK ABOUT THE WAY HIS OUTPUT DEFIES TIME. THE MEANING OF THE WORD ‘TIMELESS’ HAS BEEN DEBASED IN FASHION VERNACULAR BUT IN THE CASE OF OWENS, HIS CLOTHES CAN’T REALLY BE PLACED INTO A DEFINED STYLISTIC GENRE. LONG AFTER WE ARE DOWN IN THE GROUND, ANTHROPOLOGISTS WILL HAPPEN UPON ONE OF OWENS’ CRUMPLED LEATHER JACKETS AND OVER-DYED JERSEY T-SHIRTS (THE BREAD AND BUTTER OF OWENS’ SIZEABLE BUSINESS) AND ANALYSE THE MEANING OF THE WAY FABRIC HAS BEEN TREATED TO LOOK LIKE IT HAS BEEN WORN FOR YEARS.


AND SO WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF OWENS BEING LUCID OF HIS MORTALITY, HE ALSO NAVIGATES CONTRASTS THAT MEANS HIS WORK CAN WITHSTAND THAT TEST OF TIME. ANCIENT AND MOD-ERN. SOFT AND HARD. LEATHER AND FEATHERS. SEX AND REPRESSION. LIGHT AND DARK. NOTHING IN BE-TWEEN. THESE EXTREMES ARE ALSO OBSERVED WITH NUANCE AND HUMOUR. WHEN YOU’RE CONFRONTED WITH A LIFE-SIZE WAX FIGURINE OF OWENS PISSING ON THE FLOOR OR WITH GODZILLA MONSTER TAILS, IT’S ABOUT DEFACING THE POMPOSITY OF A SELF-PORTRAIT. OR WHEN OWENS PHOTOGRAPHS HIMSELF DECAPITATED OR PUTTING A GUN TO HIS HEAD, HE’S RECOGNISING THE ALMOST COMICAL ABSURDITY OF DEATH. HERE LIES THE FALLACY BEHIND THAT WHOLE GOTHIC CLICHÉ THAT HAS FOLLOWED HIS CAREER.

SL: MORTALITY COMES UP A LOT. DO YOU THINK ABOUT DYING ALL THE TIME?

RO: I DON’T BUT, ALL OF US TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, DO ALL OF THE TIME. IN A VERY SUBLIMINAL WAY, WE’RE CONSCIOUS OF OUR MORTALITY AND I THINK AMBITION IS DEFINITELY LINKED TO MORTALITY AS ARE CREATIVE URGES. IF WE FELT THAT WE WERE GOING TO LIVE FOREVER, I DON’T KNOW IF OUR CREATIVE URGES WOULD BE SO URGENT.

SL: BUT THE WAY MOST PEOPLE LIVE THEIR LIVES IS THAT ONCE THEY FIND A PLACE OF COMFORT, THEY JUST GO WITH THE MOTIONS EVERY DAY. THEY DON’T THINK ABOUT A FINITE END POINT AND I’M NOT SURE THEY FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE TO FIT IN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE BEFORE THAT END POINT.

RO: BUT HAVE WE BECOME DESENSITISED? WHEN WE SEE THE NEWS YOU SEE PEOPLE DYING EVERY DAY, YOU SEE, HOW FRAGILE LIFE CAN BE. IF YOU’RE CONSCIOUS OF THE WORLD WE LIVE IN, MORTALITY HAS TO BE ON YOUR MIND SOMEWHERE, YOU CAN’T PRE-TEND IT’S NOT THERE. I UNDERSTAND NOT WANTING TO, AND THAT’S FINE. I’M NOT SAYING THAT’S A BAD THING. MAYBE I’M NOT THAT HEALTHY, IF I’M SO CONSCIOUS OF MORTALITY, BUT THAT’S THE WAY I AM.

SL: HAS THAT ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE? HAVE YOU HAD PEOPLE DIE IN YOUR LIFE?

RO: ACTUALLY NO, I HAVEN’T.

SL: INTERESTING.

RO: YES, IT IS. I’VE BEEN TO ONE FUNERAL WHEN I WAS A KID I THINK, IT WASN’T LIKE A TRAUMA, I WENT TO SEE THE OPEN CASKET AND EVERYTHING, BUT I REMEMBER IT BEING VERY KIND. IT WASN’T SOMEBODY I WAS INTENSELY CLOSE WITH. MY FATHER DID DIE LIKE, TWO YEARS AGO. THAT IS SOME-THING THAT I REFLECT ON A LOT BECAUSE WE HAD A VERY INTENSE RELATIONSHIP AND I WAS THE ONLY SON. THERE WAS THAT WEIRD FATHER-AND-ONLY-SON INTENSITY. I DON’T KNOW HOW I WOULD’VE BEEN AS A FATHER BECAUSE MY FATHER WAS REALLY AN INTELLECTUAL BULLY WITH ME.

SL: IS THAT WHAT STOPPED YOU FROM HAVING KIDS?

RO: PROBABLY, BUT I’M PROBABLY REALLY SELFISH. THE OTHER THING IS THAT I COULD SEE MYSELF BEING OBSESSIVE – OBSESSIVELY NERVOUS ABOUT THEM, OBSESSIVELY SCARED BUT ALSO A LITTLE BIT LIKE MY FATHER, THINKING OF THEM AS YOUR OWN PERSONAL CONTINUATION AND WANTING TO CONTROL THEM.

SL: SO YOU’D DYE THEIR HAIR BLACK AND WANT THEM TO WORK OUT DAILY?

RO: I WOULD FORCE THEM TO DO SPORTS. I WOULDN’T BE AS EXCESSIVE AS MY FATHER. WE DIDN’T HAVE A TV IN THE HOUSE UNTIL I WAS SIXTEEN. MY MUM INSISTED ON IT FINALLY. INSTEAD THERE WAS A LOT OF PHILOSOPHICAL AND THEORETICAL LECTURES… THAT’S WHY I DON’T LIKE OVER EXPLAINING, BUT THEN I DO.

SL: ARE YOU GRATEFUL FOR THAT SENSE OF INSTILLED DISCIPLINE? OR DO YOU RESENT IT?

CHILDHOOD WITHOUT ANY FEAR OR SHAME AND BULLYING, I WOULDN’T HAVE THIS MANIC DRIVE I HAVE NOW AND I WOULDN’T HAVE THIS DISCIPLINE, AND THE DISCIPLINE THING IS A PLACE OF COMFORT. I’M NOT TO BE PATTED ON THE BACK BECAUSE OF MY DISCIPLINE BECAUSE THAT’S WHERE I WANT TO BE. PEOPLE ARE IN DIFFERENT PLACES BECAUSE THAT’S WHERE THEY WANT TO BE AND DISCIPLINE DOESN’T HAVE TO APPLY TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON, NOT EVERYBODY HAS TO LIKE WORK ON THEIR BODY. OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT PRIORITIES.

SL: IS THAT WHY YOU WORK OUT? YOU’RE THINKING ABOUT PROLONGING LIFE?

RO: AT FIRST, IT WAS ABOUT VANITY – ACTUALLY IT WASN’T EVEN SO MUCH ABOUT VANITY, IT WAS MORE ABOUT AESTHETICS. I WANT THINGS TO LOOK AS BEAUTIFUL AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN, AS POLISHED AND SLEEK AND SOPHISTICATED AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN, BUT ALSO, IT’S ABOUT A MORALITY THING TOO. I’M THINKING AS I’M HERE, I WANT TO DO MY VERY BEST. IT’S ABOUT DISCIPLINE.

SL: YOU WOULDN’T JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE WHO DON’T DO THE SAME?

RO: NOT AT ALL, THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHILDREN THAT PUT ALL OF THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY THAT I PUT INTO THE GYM, THEY’RE PUTTING INTO THEIR CHILDREN AND THAT’S A FABULOUS FORM OF DESTINY TOO. THAT IS THE OPPOSITE OF DEATH.

SL: WE CIRCLE BACK TO DEATH AGAIN…

RO: IT’S PART OF THE HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS, AND I REALLY THINK THAT EVERYBODY, EVEN THOUGH OSTENSIBLY THEY’RE GOING ABOUT THEIR DAY WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT IT, IT’S THERE IN THE DECISIONS THAT WE MAKE. AND THERE ARE THESE PRIMAL URGES – PRIMAL URGES TO FUCK. LIKE A MAN AND A WOMAN, THEY HAVE THIS URGE TO WANT TO PROCREATE, AND WANT TO LIVE FOREVER, THAT’S IMMORTALITY. WHEN YOU HAVE CHILDREN YOU’RE TOUCHING IMMORTALITY AND THAT IS A HUGE ROMANCE. I MEAN ALL AROUND US, BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE ARE BEING USED IN ADVERTISING TO SEDUCE US, I MEAN THE WHOLE IDEA OF SEDUCTION, IT’S THE OPPOSITE OF DEATH, IT’S WHAT YOU DO INSTEAD OF DIE.

SL: LET’S SAY WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE BIG IDEAS – THERE’S DEATH, AND THEN THERE’S LIFE AND THEN THERE’S CREATING LIFE. DO YOU THINK THAT’S WHAT PEOPLE SEE WHEN THEY WALK INTO YOUR STORES?

RO: I THINK WHEN YOU WALK INTO MY STORES IT’S NOT LITERAL AND IT’S NOT IN YOUR FACE, BUT ANYTHING THAT I DO IS GOING TO BE A REFLECTION OF MY PERSONAL THOUGHTS AND INTERESTS. EVERYTHING THAT I DO IS ONE UNIFIED STORY AND IF THESE ARE MY INTERESTS SOMEHOW IT’S IN THERE. I CAN’T GUARANTEE EXACTLY HOW, BUT I THINK IT’S JUST IN THERE. I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THOSE CLOTHES, ALL OF THOSE SUPPOSEDLY BIG IDEAS ARE THERE: THE SEARCH FOR IMMORTALITY, WANTING TO BE NOTICED, WANTING TO COMMUNICATE, WANTING TO CONNECT…

SL: ARE YOUR CLOTHES IMMORTAL?

RO: NO.

SL: WON’T THEY LIVE FOREVER?

RO: MY CLOTHES WILL ALWAYS HAVE A NICHE, BUT SOMEBODY’S GOT TO REACT AGAINST ME, THE WAY PEOPLE REACTED AGAINST LACROIX.

SL: I’M NOT SURE. I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE OF THEIR TIME, AND THAT WILL ALWAYS BE OF THEIR TIME, AND THEN THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO DEFY THAT AND BE REMEMBERED ALWAYS, AND YOU’RE IN THAT CATEGORY.

RO: I WONDER. I GUESS I SEE THAT MY THING BECAME VERY VISIBLE AND IT GOT KNOCKED OFF A LOT.

SL: WELL, YOU’VE BECOME AN ADJECTIVE. SOMETHING CAN BE VERY RICK OWENS-Y.

RO: YEAH, AND I’M SURE THERE’S A LITTLE BIT OF EYE-ROLLING ATTACHED TO THAT, WHICH IS FINE TOO. ANY TIME YOU GET THAT KIND OF VISIBILITY AND YOU GET A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF POPULARITY, THERE ALWAYS HAS TO BE A BACKLASH. THAT’S THE WAY FASHION WORKS, THAT’S THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS, AND IT WOULD BE GREEDY OF ME TO WANT TO MAINTAIN A CERTAIN KIND OF STATUS FOREVER. I’VE HAD A GREAT RUN.

SL: YOU SPOKE IN THE PAST TENSE THERE. IS THAT YOU GETTING YOUR CFDA LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD TALKING?

RO: IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW IT IS KIND OF A SIGNIFICANT THING, IT MEANS THAT YOU’VE REACHED A CERTAIN LEVEL THAT’S PRETTY HIGH, SO YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT COMES NEXT. EVERYONE WANTS TO STAY IN THEIR PRIME, BUT THE MINUTE YOU START EVEN THINKING ABOUT YOUR PRIME, YOU’RE AUTOMATICALLY TALKING ABOUT DEATH TOO.

SL: NOW HERE I WAS THINKING I COULD WRITE ABOUT REFUTING THAT PRINCE OF DARKNESS THING… DO YOU LIKE THOSE WORDS – GOTHIC, DARKNESS, ETC.

RO: NOT REALLY, BUT I GET IT. IT’S A BUSY WORLD, PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE, THEY NEED TO SUMMARISE. I SUMMARISE ALL THE TIME. I TOTALLY JUDGE PEOPLE. EVERYBODY DOES NO MATTER HOW YOU SAY YOU DON’T. SO WHEN I SEE A PICTURE OF MYSELF NEXT TO OTHER DESIGNERS I SAY OKAY THE LONG HAIR, THE BLACK CLOTHES, PRINCE OF DARKNESS OKAY, IT’S EASY. I DON’T BLAME PEOPLE FOR IT BUT I DON’T THINK I WOULD’VE COME UP WITH IT. IT’S BETTER THAN KING OF BLING. I LOVE IT IF PEOPLE THINK I’M SINISTER, AND I LIKE IT WHEN I GET TO TALK TO PEOPLE, AND IT ALWAYS SURPRISES THEM THAT I’M MUCH FRIENDLIER THAN THEY THINK I AM.


SL: IS THAT THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTION ABOUT YOU?

RO: PROBABLY, BUT I WOULDN’T GO OUT OF MY WAY TO STOP IT. I’VE ALWAYS LOVED MENACE, WE ALL DO. MENACE IS ATTRACTIVE.

SL: ARE THERE MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE CLOTHES AS WELL? BECAUSE I ALSO THINK THAT AS MUCH AS YOU DO GESTURE, IDEAS, AND STATEMENTS, THERE’S A LOT OF CRAFT IN WHAT YOU DO.

RO: IT’S NOT OVERLOOKED, THOUGH, I WOULDN’T HAVE LASTED THIS LONG IF IT WAS OVERLOOKED. I MEAN, IT’S NOT THE FIRST THING A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO TALK ABOUT, BUT IT’S THERE, AND THAT’S WHAT PEOPLE ARE BUYING, AND THAT’S WHAT I’M SURVIVING ON. THE REST IS JUST KIND OF ICING; ME, MY PERSONALITY, MY HAIR, WHATEVER, BUT THE CLOTHES ARE – THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE, AND THEY MEAN SOMETHING AND PEOPLE RESPOND TO THAT.

SL: DO YOU THINK PEOPLE – LET’S SAY YOUR HARDCORE FAN BASE – ARE THEY BUYING THE IDEA OR THE CRAFT?

RO: I THINK THEY’RE BUYING BOTH, THAT HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF A CONCERN TO ME SOMETIMES, BECAUSE MY WHOLE IDEA WAS TO CREATE AN INCLUSIVE WORLD AND THEN, AT ONE POINT, I FEEL LIKE IT HAD BECOME AN EXCLUSIVE ONE THAT MIGHT BE A TURN-OFF TO PEOPLE. LIKE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT MAYBE GO TO MY SHOW AND THEY SEE THIS CULT THING, AND THAT BUILDS A WALL. IT’S A TURN-OFF.

SL: I WAS PRETTY INTIMIDATED BY THAT CULT I HAVE TO SAY. WHEN I FIRST WENT BACKSTAGE TO INTERVIEW YOU I WAS COMPLETELY TERRIFIED.

RO: WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY SUPPOSED TO BE INCLUSIVE, BECAME SOMETHING FORBIDDING, AND THAT’S A SHAME. I’M A PRACTICAL PERSON AND WHEN I STARTED I ALWAYS RESENTED THIS HIGH FASHION THING BECAUSE IT JUST WASN’T ACCESSIBLE. THAT THERE WOULD BE THESE DESIGNERS WHO WOULD PRESENT THESE FLOATS AND COME OUT AT THE END IN JEANS AND A T-SHIRT. IT INFURIATED ME, LIKE WHY DON’T YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU’RE PRESENTING. JEANS AND A T-SHIRT IS A MESSAGE, IT SAYS I WANT TO LOOK COMPLETELY AVERAGE… AND I WANT TO LOOK THE OPPOSITE OF THAT. I DON’T WEAR MY COMPLETE RUNWAY THINGS BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT I’M PART OF THAT WORLD, YOU CAN SEE THAT’S MY WORLD…

SL: AND YOU’RE GETTING BEHIND IT.

RO: AND THE OTHER THING WAS THAT THERE WAS A FLASHINESS TO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS; I LOVE THE THEATRE OF OLD HOLLYWOOD, OVER THE TOP GLAMOUR AND ALL OF THAT, BUT I THOUGHT IF I COULD MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE, SOMEHOW, HAVE THIS KIND OF USED FEELING OR MAKE IT FEEL INTEGRATED INTO EVERY-DAY LIFE. IT’S KIND OF FUNNY BECAUSE I STARTED OUT VERY ANTI-RED CARPET…

SL: BUT NOW YOU’RE SORT OF MORE BEND-ING TOWARDS THE IDEA?

RO: I DON’T KNOW, BECAUSE WHAT I’M DOING NOW IT’S STILL ALL ACCESSIBLE. I MEAN, BREAK IT ALL DOWN, IT’S STILL WHAT I SELL IN MY STORES AND EVERY SINGLE THING THAT IS ON THE RUNWAY IS IN MY STORES. MAYBE THAT’S WHAT HAS CHANGED. I ALWAYS CONCENTRATED ON MAKING BEAUTIFULLY MADE CLOTHES THAT WERE SPECIAL BUT AT SOME POINT, I THOUGHT I HAVE TO GO A LITTLE FURTHER. I AM TRYING TO STICK TO MY ORIGINAL INTENTIONS BUT I FEEL LIKE IN THIS DAY AND AGE, ESPECIALLY WITH ALL OF THE FASHION SHOWS AND THE FASHION THING JUST BLOWING UP, YOU HAVE TO GO A LITTLE FURTHER TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOUR ETHOS IS. AND GOD KNOWS, I DON’T MIND THEATRE! MY LIFE IS, I SUPPOSE, AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT THEATRICAL…

AMBITION IS A WEIRD THING

INDEPENDENCE IS COVETED IN FASHION. IT’S A PRINCIPLE THAT GUIDES DESIGNERS IN THEIR BEGINNINGS UNTIL MONEY TALKS. IT SHOUTS AT YOU THROUGH IRRESISTIBLE OFFERS FROM CONGLOMERATES THAT PROMISE THE WORLD, UNTIL THE COFFERS DE-MAND PROFIT FROM PRODUCT STREAMS THAT DEVIATES FROM A DESIGNER’S ORIGINAL INTENT. MORE STUFF! MORE SHOPS! WHAT ABOUT A BEAUTY LINE? RICK OWENS HAS LEARNT THE FINE ART OF SAYING NO. HE FIRST SAID NO TO AN OFFER TO BUY OUT HIS LABEL IN 2004. HE CHOSE FINANCE CLOSER TO HOME.


IT’S ONE OF THE REASONS HE’S CONSTANTLY NAME-CHECKED AS A DESIGNER’S DESIGNER – RAF LOVES HIM, J.W. LOVES HIM ETC, ETC. HE’S UP THERE IN THAT PANTHEON WITH THE LIKES OF REI KAWAKUBO, WHO INCIDENTALLY INVITED OWENS AND LAMY TO BE HER GUESTS AT THIS YEAR’S COSTUME INSTITUTE MET BALL GALA. WITHIN A FEW MONTHS, OWENS WAS ALSO BACK IN NEW YORK RECEIVING THE GEOFFREY BEENE LIFE-TIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD AT THIS YEAR’S CFDA, AN ACCOLADE THAT HAS MADE OWENS REFLECT ON HIS BODY OF WORK AS A WHOLE, AS OPPOSED TO A SERIES OF SHOWS. AND SO ONCE YOU REACH THAT HIGHLY REGARDED, MEGA RATED ECHELON, ONE QUESTION TO ASK IS WHERE DO YOU GO NEXT? DO YOU EMULATE THE ACTIONS OF THOSE AFOREMENTIONED CONGLOMERATES AND CARRY ON RELENTLESSLY BUILDING THAT CONVENTIONAL EMPIRE – STORE-BY-STORE, PRODUCT-BY-PRODUCT? STABILITY IN FASHION ISN’T CELEBRATED ENOUGH THOUGH. IT’S PERCEIVED AS STAGNATION. THE END GOAL FOR OWENS DOESN’T NECESSARILY REVOLVE AROUND ‘BIG DICK TERRITORY’ AS HE CALLS IT. AFTER ALL, THE LEAN-AND-CLEAN OWENSCORP MODUS OPERANDI IS KEY TO OWENS’ LONGEVITY.

INSTEAD AMBITION TAKES ON A DIFFERENT FORM. SELF-IMPROVEMENT AND DISCIPLINE IS INGRAINED INTO OWENS. AND SO THE ENERGY THAT COULD BE EXPENDED ON SUPERFLUOUS PRODUCT LINES OR INDULGENT STORES IS CHANNELLED INTO HIS COLLECTIONS. GETTING BETTER IS OWENS’ ONLY WISH. BUT WHAT IS BETTER BY OWENS’ STANDARD?

SL: WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT SO MANY OTHER DESIGNERS NOW RATE YOU SO HIGHLY. FOR THEM YOU ARE THE BEST!

RO: I THINK A LOT OF IT IS TO DO WITH THE FACT WE REMAINED INDEPENDENT WHICH HAS BECOME SO UNUSUAL, WHILE ALL OF THESE DESIGNERS ARE BEING ASSASSINATED IN THEIR PRIME IN THESE HOUSES.

SL: ASSASSINATED? THAT’S EXTREME!

RO: I THINK I’M PROBABLY MORE VISIBLE RIGHT NOW AND BECAUSE OF THE CLIMATE I CAN SEE HOW TO CERTAIN DESIGNERS, MY LIFE MIGHT SEEM LIKE SOMETHING MORE IDEAL. I’M ALLOWED TO DEVELOP WHAT I REALLY BELIEVE IN, AND WITH A LOT OF THOSE DESIGNERS THEY CAN’T MAKE ANY DECISIONS WHERE THEY DON’T HAVE TO ANSWER TO A LOT OF PEOPLE, AND SO IT MUST BE HORRIBLY FRUSTRATING THAT YOUR IDEAS CANNOT GO THROUGH UNFILTERED.

SL: HAVE YOU EVER WANTED THAT – BEING WITHIN A BIG INFRASTRUCTURE?

RO: OH GOD NO. YOU KNOW THERE WAS A MINUTE WHERE I ALMOST DID IT. AN OPPORTUNITY DID COME UP WHEN I HAD BEEN DOING MY THING FOR TEN YEARS AND I THOUGHT, ‘I MIGHT NEVER HAVE A CHANCE AT THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY EVER AGAIN. WHAT IF I DON’T ACCEPT THIS MONEY AND TWO YEARS LATER, I’M TANKED, DONE.’ IT’S AWFULLY TEMPTING, YOU’RE THINKING, SURVIVAL, SURVIVAL, SURVIVAL… BUT IT WAS NEVER MY DREAM TO HEAD TO DIOR OR WHEREVER. I MEAN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A COMPROMISE. I WOULD RATHER BE RICK OWENS. I DON’T WANT TO BE ON THE LIST OF THE DESIGNERS THAT DID DIOR. I WANT TO BE REMEMBERED AS HAVING MY OWN LABEL AND I WANT TO BE DIOR. NOW THAT SOUNDS HORRIBLE, I SHOULDN’T SAY THAT… BUT I LIKE THE IDEA OF DOING THE RIGHT THING. I HAVE CERTAIN STANDARDS, I DO HAVE MORALITY. I REALLY DO. BEING SOMEBODY WHO CREATES STUFF, I’VE ALWAYS THOUGHT HOW CONNECTED IT IS WITH EGO, BECAUSE FOR SOMEBODY LIKE ME TO BE SO CONVINCED THAT MY VISION IS SO WORTHWHILE AND THAT I NEED TO INSIST AND PUSH IT OUT THERE FOR PEOPLE TO ACCEPT AND ABSORB IT – WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN? WHERE DID I GET THIS EGO THAT THINKS I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY OF SUCH VALUE TO OTHERS?

SL: DID YOU HAVE THAT RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING? BECAUSE PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY DEVELOP THAT EGO AFTER A WHILE ONCE THEY’VE BEEN FETED AND FAWNED OVER?

RO: WELL I WAS ALWAYS GOOD AT ART. I DREW WELL AND I WAS ALWAYS THE ART CLASS WHIZ KID, SO I DID HAVE VALIDATION VERY EARLY ON FOR CREATIVITY. I KNEW I COULD DO THAT BETTER THAN A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE.

SL: WHAT WAS THE EARLY AMBITION?

RO: WHEN I WAS STARTING OUT AS A DESIGNER? I DON’T KNOW, I WANTED TO BE CHARLES JAMES, I’VE SAID THAT A LOT IN INTERVIEWS TOO, BECAUSE I DIDN’T HAVE THE AMBITION… I LIKED BEING ESOTERIC AND NOT COMPLETELY POPULAR. THAT SOUNDS LIKE A VERY ARROGANT THING TO SAY, BUT I LIKED THE IDEA OF BEING ECCENTRIC AND WEIRD AND NOT COVERING THE WHOLE NATION.

SL: BUT WAIT, YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO BE DIOR!.

RO: BUT BEING DIOR IS A DIFFERENT THING. DIOR ALWAYS, WAS ABOUT REFINEMENT AND A HOUSE-HOLD NAME – BUT I DIDN’T HAVE THE CONFIDENCE THEN OF AIMING THAT HIGH. I ALWAYS THOUGHT I’M GOING TO BE A GLAMOROUS WEIRDO. I DIDN’T THINK I COULD EVER MAKE IT TO THAT KIND OF LEGENDARY-NESS. BUT I CAN MAKE IT TO ECCENTRIC WEIRDO…

SL: WELL THEN IN TERMS OF AMBITION, WHERE CAN IT GO NOW? OR WHAT CAN IT BECOME? IS BEING LIKE DIOR THE AMBITION? DO YOU WANT A THOUSAND LICENSING DEALS OR, I DON’T KNOW, A RICK OWENS PERFUME AD RUNNING ON TV OR CINEMA SCREENS?

RO: WELL, NO, THAT’S SOMETHING I REGRET A LITTLE BIT. IF I HAD GONE DOWN THAT ROUTE I WAS TALKING ABOUT… THERE ARE LEGENDARY AD CAMPAIGNS LIKE THE HELMUT LANG AD ON THE TAXI CAB. THERE’S SOME THINGS THAT I DO GO, ‘OH I WISH I’D DONE THAT.’ OR ‘I WISH I HAD AN IRVING PENN PORTRAIT DONE!’ I WAS TALKING MYSELF INTO IT BECAUSE I WAS THINKING WELL I’VE DONE IT A CERTAIN WAY FOR TEN YEARS AND I KNOW THAT I LOVE ROUTINE, MAYBE IT’S GOOD THAT I’M BREAKING THE ROUTINE, MAYBE IT’LL INVIGORATE ME AND MAYBE IT’LL BE INTERESTING LEARNING HOW TO PAINT WITH A DIFFERENT SET OF BRUSHES…. ANYWAYS, I DIDN’T DO IT FINALLY, AND THANK GOD.

SL: WHAT STOPPED YOU?

RO: I GOT A BETTER OFFER. I GOT ALL THE MONEY I WANTED. MY PARTNERS, WHO WERE THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRIBUTORS, WHO’D COME TO LOS ANGELES, SAID ‘IF YOU LET US DISTRIBUTE YOU, WE CAN HOOK YOU UP WITH A MANUFACTURER AND WE CAN ALL SPLIT IT.’ ANYWAY AT THE TIME I SAID ‘SORRY GUYS. I MIGHT NEVER GET THIS BIG MONEY AGAIN AND I REALLY WANT TO BUY THIS HOUSE’ AND THEY GO ‘OKAY, WHAT IF WE BUY THIS HOUSE FOR YOU?’ AND I GO ‘OKAY, THAT’LL WORK.’ SO THEY COMMITTED TO BUYING THE HOUSE FOR ME.

SL: NOW THOUGH YOU’RE OBVIOUSLY NEVER GOING TO SELL YOUR BRAND – NOT FOR A BAZILLION DOLLARS… WELL, MAYBE A BAZILLION DOLLARS?

RO: NO, NOT EVEN A BAZILLION DOLLARS, SUSIE. WHAT WOULD I EVEN DO WITH A BAZILLION DOLLARS OR EUROS. THAT’S THE OTHER THING, AT A CERTAIN POINT YOU MAKE THE MONEY THAT YOU NEED RE-ALLY. DO I NEED VACATION HOMES THAT I VISIT ONCE A YEAR? NOT REALLY. DO I NEED A JET? NO. I DON’T REALLY TRAVEL THAT MUCH. IT’S ALL ABOUT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE MAKING MONEY AND ARGUING ABOUT MONEY AND TRYING TO MAKE MORE MONEY.

SL: IN FASHION I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE SEEM TO HAVE GOTTEN THE END GAME REALLY WRONG AND THAT’S WHY YOU HAVE A LOT OF NOT SO GREAT DESIGNERS – BECAUSE PEOPLE’S AMBITION IS LIKE JUST MUCH BIGGER THAN IT NEEDS TO BE.

RO: I WANT TO GET BETTER, I HAVE MORE DRIVE NOW THAN I THINK I EVER DID, MAYBE IT’S BECAUSE I CAN SEE WHO I AM. I FEEL LIKE I’M LEARNING, I FEEL LIKE I’M GETTING BETTER, I FEEL LIKE I’M BETTER NOW THAN I WAS TEN YEARS AGO AND I’M THINKING MAYBE IN TEN YEARS I’LL BE EVEN BETTER. I WANT THINGS TO GET MORE REFINED, I WANT MY THINGS TO BE SMARTER, I WANT THEM TO BE MORE RELEVANT, I WANT THEM TO BE AN EXPRESSION THAT I’M REALLY PROUD OF. I WANT THEM TO BE AS SOPHISTICATED, AND AS ELEGANT AND AND AS REFINED – CONCEPTUALLY, PHYSICALLY – AS POSSIBLE. I LOVE BEAUTIFUL, SMART THINGS AND I WANT TO MAKE BEAUTIFUL, SMART THINGS. BUT BE BIGGER? MORE STORES? NO! I CAN’T VISIT THEM ALL ANYWAY. WHAT IS THE POINT? IS THAT LIKE HAVING A BIG DICK? I DO THINK ABOUT GIORGIO ARMANI ACTUALLY BECAUSE ARMANI WAS ALWAYS SOMEONE THAT I PERSONALLY IDENTIFIED WITH. I LOVED THE NEUTRALITY.

SL: YOU MEAN EIGHTIES ARMANI?

RO: EVEN NOW HE’S CONSISTENT. HERE’S SOMEBODY WHO HAS HIS VISION, THERE’S DEFINITELY INTEGRITY THERE. FROM MY GENERAL PERCEPTION I STILL SEE A SIGNATURE, AN EMPIRE BUILT ON A FOUNDATION OF NEUTRALITY, ELEGANCE, A 1930S THING, WHICH I’M, OF COURSE, TOTALLY OBSESSED WITH.

SL: SO HE HAS LIKE TOWELS, HOTELS AND COSMETICS… DO YOU WANT ALL OF THAT?

RO: WELL THAT’S JUST IT, I LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND I’M THINKING, ‘I DON’T KNOW IF THAT’S WHERE I REALLY WANT TO GO’. I LOVE THAT HE DID IT THAT WAY, BUT WHEN IT GETS THAT BIG, IT’S NOT AS EXQUISITE.

SL: COULD YOU NOT MAKE AN EXQUISITE TOWEL, RICK?

RO: IT BECOMES BIG DICK TERRITORY.

SL: YOU COULD DO A GREAT RESTAURANT.

VISIT? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO ME? BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU CAN’T STAY STILL OR ELSE YOU DIE. IF YOU REACH A PLATEAU AND PEOPLE PERCEIVE IT, IT’S TROUBLE. YOU CAN’T COMFORTABLY STAY IN A PLATEAU – YOU HAVE TO MOVE. BUT THERE’S DIFFERENT WAYS OF MOVING AND THE OTHER THING ABOUT GETTING BIGGER IS THERE’S MORE PEOPLE INVOLVED. I HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE IN MY LIFE RIGHT NOW, I DON’T WANT MORE PEOPLE TO HAVE TO TALK TO. I DON’T WANT TO HAVE MORE MEETINGS. IF I DON’T WANT TO DO MEETINGS, I HAVE TO GIVE CONTROL OVER TO A GROUP OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING THINGS UNDER MY NAME. THAT MAKES ME SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE, I DON’T LIKE THAT.


SL: DELEGATING. COMPROMISING.

RO: THAT’S WHAT A RESTAURANT IN HONG KONG ENTAILS, IT ENTAILS COMPROMISE.

SL: JUST OUT OF INTEREST, WHAT WOULD YOU SERVE?

RO: OH, IT’D BE ALL BIO, LIKE BEAUTIFUL LITTLE ORGANIC THINGS LIKE MADE FROM A GARDEN THAT WE GROW.


SL: ON BLACK PLATES?

RO: PROBABLY NOT, PROBABLY WHITE. I LIKE WHITE TABLE CLOTHS AND WHITE PLATES. THERE’S A REAL CLASSIC STREAK TO ME.


SL: OK SO NO OTHER REALMS THEN?

RO: WELL, NEVER SAY NEVER… I MEAN IN FIVE YEARS TIME I MIGHT BE COMPLETELY VORACIOUS AND WANT STORES EVERYWHERE AND, YOU KNOW, HOOKERS AND COKE. I DON’T KNOW! I HAD THIS CHILDHOOD THAT I THOUGHT WAS VERY OPPRESSIVE, ALTHOUGH I ALWAYS THINK THAT EVERY KID FEELS THAT WAY, SO WHAT MAKES ME SO SPECIAL. BUT THEN WHEN I GOT OLDER, I WAS ABLE TO BE AS FREE AS I WANTED AND I WAS AS EXCESSIVE AS I COULD POSSIBLY BE. I WAS AS FLAMBOYANT, ECCENTRIC AND HIGH AS I COULD BE ALL THE TIME UNTIL THAT WORE ITSELF OUT. PARTLY PHYSICALLY BECAUSE MY BODY JUST COULDN’T TAKE IT ANYMORE, BECAUSE I WOULD STILL DRINK IF I DIDN’T GET HANGOVERS. I LIKE THE IDEA OF HAVING A LUST FOR LIFE. I LOVE MY FRIENDS THAT CAN ELEGANTLY HANDLE DRUGS AND ALCOHOL EVERY NIGHT. THEY’RE PARTICIPATING AND SATISFYING LUSTY APPETITES, THEY’RE SEIZING THE WORLD BY THE HORNS AND ENJOYING IT IN AN ELEGANT WAY WITHOUT SEEMING TO SUFFER ANY SIDE EFFECTS.

SL: THEY’RE JUST WANTING TO ESCAPE?

RO: BUT IT’S NOT TO ESCAPE. IF THERE ARE ALL THESE PLEASURES OUT THERE, AREN’T THESE PLEASURES MEANT TO BE ENJOYED? THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT JUST USE THEM FOR ENJOYMENT’S SAKE, NOT TO ESCAPE. I DID IT TO ESCAPE AND THAT’S BECAUSE OF ME, AND THAT’S MY FAULT AND THAT’S MY WEAKNESS. I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE OUT THERE THAT ENJOY PLEASURE. AND I THINK THAT’S A FANTASTIC THING. I WISH I WAS LIKE THAT, I WISH I COULD DO THAT MORE.

SL: SO WHAT GIVES YOU PLEASURE?

RO: CREATING BEAUTIFUL THINGS, DISCIPLINE, FEELING ORGANISED, FEELING CLEARHEADED, STABLE.

SL: LIKE A CREATIVE MONK!

RO: I LIKE EATING CAKE. I LIKE STUPID MOVIES SOMETIMES, AND I LIKE GOING DANCING. MY PAST OF EXCESS BECAME DISCIPLINE. MY CLOTHES ARE VERY MUCH ABOUT THAT CONTROL AND COLLAPSING – LIKE THAT PART OF YOU THAT EVERYBODY HAS. LIKE WHAT IF I JUST LET GO AND COMPLETELY INDULGED MYSELF IN EVERYTHING AND THOUGHT OF ONLY PLEASURE. WHAT IF I WAS JUST COMPLETELY SELFISH AND JUST FORGOT ABOUT ALL RESPONSIBILITIES AND DISCIPLINE, AND ORDER. EVERYBODY LIKES TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO BE WICKED JUST FOR A SECOND AND THAT’S THE ID SPEAKING TO US. THERE HAVE BEEN MOMENTS WHERE I’M VERY CONTROLLED WITH MY CLOTHES AND THERE HAVE BEEN MOMENTS WHERE I’VE LUGUBRIOUSLY COLLAPSED.

SL: WICKED MOMENTS…

RO: THERE WAS A BRUTALISM PHASE, AND THEN THERE WAS AN ART NOUVEAU PHASE AND ART NOUVEAU IS VERY MUCH ABOUT GIVING INTO SENSUALITY. CURVES, ORGANIC AND DRIPPING AND I INDULGED IN THAT FOR A WHILE WITH MY CLOTHES AND IT WAS KIND OF A COMMENTARY ON DISCIPLINE AND CHAOS AT THE SAME TIME BECAUSE WHEN YOU INDULGE IN THAT MUCH ‘DRIPPINESS’ IT’S A REACTION AGAINST CONTROL. THAT’S KIND OF THE STORY OF MY LIFE – TRYING TO FIND THE BALANCE BETWEEN THEM.


SL: AN EQUILIBRIUM?

RO: YES, EXACTLY, AN EQUILIBRIUM. A BALANCE THAT EMBRACES KINDNESS, LOVE AND BEING. CONTRIBUTING IN A POSITIVE WAY TO THE WORLD. AND FULFILLING YOUR POTENTIAL IS KIND OF A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TOO.

SL: MORAL – REALLY?

RO: YEAH, I FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT MORAL RESPONSIBILITIES. WHEN I DO THE SHOWS, I FEEL MORALLY I NEED TO TALK ABOUT BEAUTY THAT ISN’T CLICHÉ, THAT ISN’T STANDARDS OF BEAUTY THAT ALREADY GET TALKED ABOUT A LOT EVERYWHERE ELSE.


SL: WHO OUT THERE DO YOU LIKE?

RO: CLOTHES WISE? I DON’T KNOW… I DON’T LIKE ANYBODY JUST BECAUSE I’VE BECOME SO ANALYTICAL. ALTHOUGH I DID SEND A TEXT TO RAF THE OTHER DAY AND I SAID ‘I JUST WENT TO THE CALVIN KLEIN STORE AND I CAN’T WAIT TO GO BACK WHEN IT IS AN APEX OF JOHN PAWSON, RAF SIMONS, CALVIN KLEIN AND STERLING RUBY AND WHEN ALL OF THOSE FORCES COLLIDE IN THAT SPACE I’M GOING TO FALL DROOLING ON THE FLOOR.’ AND I WASN’T KIDDING. I RESPECT JOHN PAWSON A LOT, I RESPECT WHAT CALVIN DID, I RESPECT RAF, I RESPECT STERLING RUBY, WHO IS SUPPOSED TO REDESIGN THAT STORE I BELIEVE, SO I’M THINKING WHEN THAT HAPPENS, I’M REALLY GOING TO LIKE BEING IN THERE. IT’S KIND OF GOING TO BE LIKE THE TATE. IT’S GOING TO BE A MOMENT OF CONTEMPORARY AESTHETICS CONVERGING IN A PLACE THAT I LIKE AND THAT’S WHY GOING TO THE MET, OR GOING TO THE CFDA, THESE THINGS FOR ME WERE GREAT BECAUSE THEY WERE MOMENTS WHERE ALTER-NATIVE AESTHETICS WERE NOW BEING RECOGNISED.

SL: DID IT FEEL LIKE THAT WHEN YOU WERE THERE THOUGH?

RO: NO, NO, NO! GOD, IT WAS FUCKING CRAZY.

[RICK GOES OFF THE RECORD TO DESCRIBE REI KAWAKUBO AT THE MET WATCHING KATY PERRY SINGING ‘REI MAKES ME FEEL SO SEXY…’]

SL: AND WAS IT ODD TO RECEIVE THE CFDA LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD, EVEN IF WHAT YOU DO IS SOMETIMES A ‘FUCK YOU’ TO THE FASHION ESTABLISHMENT.

RO: BUT IT’S NOT. IT’S A TWEAKING AND IT’S TEASING AND IT’S A GENTLE REMINDER; IT’S NEVER REALLY A HOSTILE FUCK YOU. LIKE I SEE OTHER THINGS THAT I THINK ARE ACTUALLY FUCK YOU’S. MY THING IS MORE LIKE ‘HEY! OVER HERE! WE’VE GOT LIKE A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENT AESTHETIC THING IF YOU’RE INTERESTED!’ THAT’S HOW I WANT IT TO BE. I DON’T WANT IT TO BE A FUCK YOU. AND I DON’T THINK IT IS. I THINK WHEN I DO THINGS THEY ARE AFFECTIONATE.

SL: BUT THEN WHEN YOU RECEIVED THAT CFDA AWARD, WAS THERE EVER A FEELING LIKE, ‘OH WELL TEN YEARS AGO NONE OF YOU WANTED TO KNOW, BUT NOW YOU DO.’

RO: NO, I CAN SEE HOW IT MIGHT SEEM LIKE THAT BUT I HAVEN’T MADE AN EFFORT TO BE A PART OF THAT GROUP AND I’M NOT PART OF THE US FASHION INDUSTRY AND IT’S NOT LIKE I WAS SUPER FRIENDLY OR ANYTHING. I’M NOT THAT GREGARIOUS, SO I GET IT. EVERYBODY HAS A LOT OF OTHER THINGS TO DO, AND IT’S NOT LIKE THEY HAVE TO NOTICE ME.

SL: WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU WERE TOLD YOU WERE GETTING THE AWARD?

RO: IT WAS VERY VALIDATING. I’LL BE HONEST THOUGH, I THOUGHT SOMEONE LIKE THE CFDA WILL PROBABLY RECOGNISE ME LIKE, TEN YEARS FROM NOW IF I LAST, BECAUSE IF I CAN LAST FOR A LONG TIME AT A CERTAIN LEVEL YOU KNOW THEY HAVE TO GET AROUND TO ME SOONER OR LATER. BUT COMING AT THIS MOMENT, I WAS LIKE ‘WOW THEY REALLY NOTICED.’ I MEAN SOMEBODY REALLY NOTICED THAT I WAS DOING STUFF AND THAT’S KIND OF AMAZING. BECAUSE I ALWAYS ASSUMED THAT I’M FAIRLY INVISIBLE SINCE WE’RE A SMALL COMPANY, AND IT’S NOT LIKE I HAVE HUGE INSTAGRAM LIKES OR ANYTHING.


SL: DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL MORE LIKE AN AMERICAN DESIGNER?

RO: THERE AREN’T MANY AMERICANS THAT HAVE BEEN TOLERATED IN PARIS FASHION IN THIS WAY, SO IT DOES FEEL LIKE AN ACHIEVEMENT. I MEAN, I KIND OF MUSCLED MY WAY IN HERE AND PEOPLE DECIDED IT WAS OKAY. THAT’S KIND OF GREAT.

SL: DO YOU THINK YOU’LL BE AN AMERICAN IN PARIS FOREVER?

RO: PROBABLY, BECAUSE I’M JUST VERY AMERICAN, I MEAN JUST THE WAY I TALK. HOW COULD I BE MORE BLATANTLY AMERICAN? I’VE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT MY AESTHETIC WAS VERY MUCH AN AMERICAN REDUCTIVE, BLUNT INTERPRETATION OR SIMPLISTIC INTERPRETATION OR ADMIRATION OR FASCINATION WITH EUROPEAN COMPLEXITY SO I ALWAYS FELT LIKE I WAS DOING A CARTOON INTERPRETATION OF EUROPEAN ALLURE. A BRUTALIST VERSION.

SL: I KNOW YOU SAID YOU’RE NOT POLITICAL BUT YOU MUST HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ON WHAT WHAT’S GOING ON IN AMERICA?

RO: I’M NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT WHOLE DIVISIVE THING IN THE STATES. AFTER EVERYTHING THAT THE WORLD HAS BEEN THROUGH AND AT THIS POINT IN HISTORY, FOR US TO BE REVERTING BACK TO THAT KIND OF DIVISIVENESS, IT’S DISTURBING – ISN’T IT A SHAME? BUT THEN I’M THINKING LIFE IS NOT FAIR – PEOPLE NEVER SEEM TO LEARN. THERE ARE SOME BASIC PETTY ATTITUDES THAT ARE NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY. YOU’D HAVE TO BE A UTOPIAN IDEALIST TO THINK OTHERWISE. YOU’D THINK AFTER EVERYTHING WE’VE GONE THROUGH IN OUR HISTORY WE WOULD HAVE MADE ENOUGH PROGRESS TO LEARN FROM OUR PAST MISTAKES BUT THAT DOESN’T HAPPEN.

SL: WHY WAS IT THAT LAST YEAR FELT RATHER LIKE 1930S GERMANY?

RO: I THINK PEOPLE ARE WIRED TO HAVE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF SELFISHNESS AND THERE’S A PERCENTAGE OF THE WORLD WHOSE URGES MIGHT NOT BE AS PURE. WHEN I SEE CONFLICTS OR SITUATIONS THAT ARE UNATTRACTIVE IN THE WORLD, THERE’S THAT FATALIST INSIDE OF ME WHO SAYS THAT’S THE WAY THE WORLD IS SUPPOSED TO BE. IT’S ALMOST LIKE WATCHING THE MAN NEXT DOOR BEAT HIS WIFE.

SL: YOU THINK YOU CAN’T STOP IT?

RO: YOU CAN STOP IT, YOU CAN STOP IT IF IT’S NEXT DOOR, YOU CAN’T STOP IT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD AND YOU CAN’T STOP IT WHERE IT’S HAPPENING IN SO MANY PLACES IN THE WORLD. YOU CAN PROTECT, YOU CAN HELP AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. AND I’M NOT SAYING LET’S JUST GIVE UP EITHER, I’M UNFORMULATED – I HAVEN’T COME UP WITH A SOLUTION.

SL: BUT YOUR WORK IS A FORM OF PROTEST?

RO: PROTEST AND HOPE – THINGS THAT I HOPE FOR THE WORLD AND THINGS THAT I HOPE FOR ALL OF US.

SL: IF I JUST ASKED SOMEONE RANDOMLY ON THE STREET IF CLOTHES CAN TRULY BE A FORM OF PROTEST, THEY’D LIKELY LAUGH.

RO: WELL NO, I THINK CLOTHES CAN BE A FORM OF PROTEST. I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT THE 70S WHEN CLOTHES WERE GARISH, FLAMBOYANT, AND ALMOST GROTESQUE. I THOUGHT THAT WAS KIND OF A GREAT REACTION, BECAUSE IT WAS VERY MUCH ABOUT PROTEST AND SEXUALITY AND SEXUAL BOMBAST. BUT THERE WAS ALSO SOMETHING KIND OF HUMOROUS ABOUT IT. YOU HAD TO HAVE A SENSE OF CAMP TO ENJOY EVERYTHING. I THINK THERE’S A NEW GENERATION OF DESIGNERS GOING IN THAT DIRECTION AND I LOVE IT. I LOVE A FUCK YOU, AND I LOVE GROTESQUE, I’M JUST NOT COMPLETELY SOLD BECAUSE, ALL I SEE IS NEGATION, AND I DON’T NECESSARILY SEE WHAT THEY’RE STANDING FOR.

SL: THAT DOESN’T SEEM TO MATTER TO A LOT OF PEOPLE THESE DAYS.

RO: MAYBE THAT’S EVOLUTION, MAYBE WE HAVE GONE THROUGH SINCERITY AND EARNESTNESS AS FAR AS IT CAN GO AND NOW WE HAVE TO GO IN ANOTHER DIRECTION. NOW IT HAS TO BE ARCH, AND CALCULATED AND CYNICAL. THAT’S INTERESTING TOO.


SL: BUT YOU COULD NEVER DO THAT.